PDK vs Manual?
#61
Three Wheelin'
My GTS has the 6 spd manual and it is my Fun car. The PDK is faster, more convenient, better in traffic, safer while texting (kidding), easier to track, latest technology, etc. But for me, my Porsche is my fun sports car and I enjoy the feeling/interaction of rowing the gears. I don't deal with stop and go traffic and have bluetooth to talk on my phone while shifting. I had a new M3 with the DCT trans and loved it for many of the same reasons most like the PDK but it sat in the garage while I drove the GTS. To each his own- if I had one of each in my garage, I would definitely drive and enjoy the PDK for daily drives, track events or traveling to LA or Seattle but for a 'fun' drive through the mountain roads or a spirited drive home the long way, I would take my 6 spd manual. That's one of the big pluses of Porsche- lots of choices and few wrong answers. Good luck with your choice.
#62
Rennlist Member
PDK is not going to get you three car lengths by 60mph. While you may travel 35ft in .4 seconds at 60mph, that does not mean you will be anywhere near 35ft ahead in a drag race to 60mph.
#63
Rennlist Member
Claiming the presence of a MT gives one that classic sports car experience in a modern sports car like a Porsche is akin to donning an old WWI flying scarf and leather flight jacket before boarding a modern commerical jet and claiming the flight gives one the "classic biplane experience".
#64
Nordschleife Master
So let me understand...I would need to go back to a Model T "sport" for a true classic sports car experience or the Wright Bros For a classic flying experience?
For those that think they can feel .4 of a seconds difference in acceleration from the seat of your pants...I'm impressed but seriously doubt you could nor do I think such ability determines whether you should drive a sports car. And as pointed out to 60mph you would not be 35ft ahead. Furthermore around a track you better be better in braking, your lines, shift points etc..for PDK to put you ahead at the finish line apples to apples.
MTs have been standard fare in the worlds top sports cars for 40 years or so. Thus making it the "classic" combo and trans for sports cars. Perhaps in 40 yrs PDK will be considered a classic trans.
For those that think they can feel .4 of a seconds difference in acceleration from the seat of your pants...I'm impressed but seriously doubt you could nor do I think such ability determines whether you should drive a sports car. And as pointed out to 60mph you would not be 35ft ahead. Furthermore around a track you better be better in braking, your lines, shift points etc..for PDK to put you ahead at the finish line apples to apples.
MTs have been standard fare in the worlds top sports cars for 40 years or so. Thus making it the "classic" combo and trans for sports cars. Perhaps in 40 yrs PDK will be considered a classic trans.
#65
Race Director
A=VF-VI/T
where A = Acceleration
VF = Final Velocity
VI = Initial Velocity
T = Time
A for MT = 60-0/4.5 = 13.33mph/sec = .003695 mi/sec
A for PDK = 60-0/4.3 = 13.95mph/sec = .003876 mi/sec
A for PDK LC = 60-0/4.1 = 14.63mph/sec = .004065 mi/sec
So using the formula
S = VoT + (1/2)(a)(T^2)
where
S = distance travelled
Vo = initial velocity = 0
T = time travelled
a = acceleration
How far will each car have travelled in 4.1 seconds (the time it takes for the PDK LC to reach 60), and how far will they be behind PDK LC at that point?
For the MT
S=0 + (1/2)(.003695)(4.1^2)
S=.0310564 miles = 163.97 feet
For PDK
S=0 + (1/2)(.003876)(4.1^2)
S=.0325778 miles = 172.01 feet
For PDK LC
S=0 + (1/2)(.004065)(4.1^2)
S=.0341663 miles = 180.39 feet
Upon reaching 60mph in 4.1 seconds the PDK with Launch Control will have travelled 180 feet. The PDK car will have travelled 172 feet and be about 1/2 car length behind while the MT car will have travelled 164 feet and be trailing the LC car by slightly more than a full car length.
Not the 35 feet I referenced initially but not insignificant either for just a 4 second run.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 08-04-2011 at 01:13 AM.
#66
Nordschleife Master
Well I can't challenge the math primarily because I don't understand it in the slightest...but assuming you can tell you went 8ft further from the seat of your pants in 4 seconds...again I impressed but again I doubt you could.
Formula used...common sense.
Formula used...common sense.
#68
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada, Outside Turn 2 Mosport
Posts: 1,291
Received 251 Likes
on
139 Posts
For what its worth, I watched a novice practice on the slaloms and hit cones everytime.
Just for the heck of it, i did the slalom and I could get to the end of the section at a much higher rate of speed and quicker without hitting any cones.
Just for fun we did a 0-140kph run on a stright on the track. He beat me everytime.
We drove the same cars 997.2 c4s, but mine MT and his pdk.
I had a bmw man/auto which I did street and autocross and eventually I always left in auto, because it was easier.
Given the choice I eventually chose easy, everytime.
That's why I prefer manual because I don't have the choice.
Now on top of having to better my own driving, I have to contend with novices with PDK. Hail the ski bunnies
Just for the heck of it, i did the slalom and I could get to the end of the section at a much higher rate of speed and quicker without hitting any cones.
Just for fun we did a 0-140kph run on a stright on the track. He beat me everytime.
We drove the same cars 997.2 c4s, but mine MT and his pdk.
I had a bmw man/auto which I did street and autocross and eventually I always left in auto, because it was easier.
Given the choice I eventually chose easy, everytime.
That's why I prefer manual because I don't have the choice.
Now on top of having to better my own driving, I have to contend with novices with PDK. Hail the ski bunnies
#69
Wow, this thread is awesome. Is the most civilized thread about manual vs auto i've read, in a sorta weird entertaining way.
I say drive what you want. Drive what you can afford. Drive what you are able to. Drive what YOU think is fun.
If you still can't figure it out,.... get the MT. Only because you'll never have to justify about getting a MT on the forums.
I say drive what you want. Drive what you can afford. Drive what you are able to. Drive what YOU think is fun.
If you still can't figure it out,.... get the MT. Only because you'll never have to justify about getting a MT on the forums.
#70
Race Director
The math was just an exercise using basic formulas for acceleration and distance/acceleration. It wasn't intended to prove anything except to satisfy my own curiousity, correct the earlier claim I made about a 35' advantage to 60, and share the info with anyone who might be interested. From my long experience with MT's, though, the reason a PDK car "feels" faster is not so much the objective numbers but the more subjective feeling of instant response, quick shifts, ease of input, etc. It is faster and it feels faster. How important that is to anyone relative to the PDK/MT discussion is open to debate. But it does seem odd for people to try and dismiss one of PDK's advantages by saying, yeah, it's faster on paper but you can't feel it anyway.
#71
Nordschleife Master
Forget about 8ft, 4 seconds and 0.4 seconds. Looking at stark numbers is useless in this discussion (although Mike's math is impressive ). The margin may be slim but there's no disputing the difference in seat of the pants sensation during those 4 seconds between the MT and the PDK. Turns out it translates to real time in this case, slight as it may be. Have you driven both?
#72
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London, UK and CT, US
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Everyone
Nice math Mike. I like it. So I was thinking about the mention that is the PDK weaker as a manual driver on the track makes adjustments as he or she drives. Now I am not 100% sure about this so bear with me and please correct me if I am mistaken. As the PDK has duel clutches the next gear up or down has already been selected. So the slip we all have felt in manuals is not present in a PDK and there is less wear as the computer gets it right a lot more than us humans. And as there are no gaps in power or more preciously the gap is less than when shifting a manual. The acceleration is stronger and thus faster. So the PDK is going to be faster on the street and probably even more so on the track. As many have mentioned your shifting points can be adjusted as the PDK allows for significantly faster shifts and short loss of power and or momentium making for faster lap times.
I will say I was truly surprised that the PDK 911 was faster around a track than a manual and it is the first time this has been the case. As this discussion has proceeded it has become more and more apparent to me that for any of us to really understand the differences one has to drive both back to back and for a long period of time. May be there is somewhere to rent a 911 PDK for a weekend and really see how it is to drive in one's daily life.
When I asked the questions I have asked I was not ever trying to make it a debate as to which is better, more fun etc. Rather I wanted a good understanding from owners that have owned both and currently own a PDK to see how they like driving it now after owning it for a period of time. In my 2003 M3 I got it with SMG and it was fun and I liked it in the beginning but after a bit I just didn't use it and it stayed in auto most of the time. I like driving and performance driving so as I step back into a Porsche 911 again I want to have all the fun I remember of my previous driving 911s (all were manual) and possibly embrace new technology too. I truly love the time we are living in and seeing the advances.
Thanks to everyone commenting. Please keep writing your thoughts.
Cheers,
Nice math Mike. I like it. So I was thinking about the mention that is the PDK weaker as a manual driver on the track makes adjustments as he or she drives. Now I am not 100% sure about this so bear with me and please correct me if I am mistaken. As the PDK has duel clutches the next gear up or down has already been selected. So the slip we all have felt in manuals is not present in a PDK and there is less wear as the computer gets it right a lot more than us humans. And as there are no gaps in power or more preciously the gap is less than when shifting a manual. The acceleration is stronger and thus faster. So the PDK is going to be faster on the street and probably even more so on the track. As many have mentioned your shifting points can be adjusted as the PDK allows for significantly faster shifts and short loss of power and or momentium making for faster lap times.
I will say I was truly surprised that the PDK 911 was faster around a track than a manual and it is the first time this has been the case. As this discussion has proceeded it has become more and more apparent to me that for any of us to really understand the differences one has to drive both back to back and for a long period of time. May be there is somewhere to rent a 911 PDK for a weekend and really see how it is to drive in one's daily life.
When I asked the questions I have asked I was not ever trying to make it a debate as to which is better, more fun etc. Rather I wanted a good understanding from owners that have owned both and currently own a PDK to see how they like driving it now after owning it for a period of time. In my 2003 M3 I got it with SMG and it was fun and I liked it in the beginning but after a bit I just didn't use it and it stayed in auto most of the time. I like driving and performance driving so as I step back into a Porsche 911 again I want to have all the fun I remember of my previous driving 911s (all were manual) and possibly embrace new technology too. I truly love the time we are living in and seeing the advances.
Thanks to everyone commenting. Please keep writing your thoughts.
Cheers,
#73
Race Director
So I was thinking about the mention that is the PDK weaker as a manual driver on the track makes adjustments as he or she drives. Now I am not 100% sure about this so bear with me and please correct me if I am mistaken. As the PDK has duel clutches the next gear up or down has already been selected. So the slip we all have felt in manuals is not present in a PDK and there is less wear as the computer gets it right a lot more than us humans. And as there are no gaps in power or more preciously the gap is less than when shifting a manual. The acceleration is stronger and thus faster. So the PDK is going to be faster on the street and probably even more so on the track. As many have mentioned your shifting points can be adjusted as the PDK allows for significantly faster shifts and short loss of power and or momentium making for faster lap times.
#74
I've driven both in a 997 and I enjoy the MT more. Just a personal choice- drive whichever you like.
Regarding seat of the pants measurements- I always understood this to be the feel of how hard the car pulls in any given gear (instantaneous acceleration).. not so much the overall speed or distance traveled (or overall average accelation for a run). By that definiton, the PDK and MT should be the same. You'll be spending more time getting into gear on the MT but once you're in let's say second gear at 5k RPM it's going to be the same instantaneous accelation at that second in either PDK or MT. You lose the time in a drag race in a MT because you're taking the engine out of line with the drivetrain to shift and that's wasted time that you could have power going to the rear wheels.. during those times of course the seat of the pants measure will be better in the PDK.
Regarding seat of the pants measurements- I always understood this to be the feel of how hard the car pulls in any given gear (instantaneous acceleration).. not so much the overall speed or distance traveled (or overall average accelation for a run). By that definiton, the PDK and MT should be the same. You'll be spending more time getting into gear on the MT but once you're in let's say second gear at 5k RPM it's going to be the same instantaneous accelation at that second in either PDK or MT. You lose the time in a drag race in a MT because you're taking the engine out of line with the drivetrain to shift and that's wasted time that you could have power going to the rear wheels.. during those times of course the seat of the pants measure will be better in the PDK.
#75
Rennlist Member
What you are now comparing is our driving skills vs. Walter's.