PDK vs Manual?
07-28-2011, 04:14 PM
#16
Race Director
Actually, James, I think it is possible to answer your question without bias if you've had extensive experience with both manual and PDK., as opposed to a brief test drive with one or the other. Like mrzoop, I've had over 4 decades of experience driving many different kinds of cars with manual transmissions, including 3 Porsches so I've got no axe to grind on that score. I've also owned a 997.2 S with PDK for the past 2 years, so I think I can give you a decent sense of what it's like to own a PDK car after years of driving MT's.
You've driven manuals; I don't need to tell you what's fun or enjoyable about driving one so I'll concentrate on my impression of PDK. As an autoxer, PDK has been a big advantage. No more concerns about whether time will be lost by upshifting on the straight at the expense of lost time on the downshift for the corner. Always in the right gear coming out of a turn with maximum acceleration. No need to lift the throttle and lose acceleration for gearchanges. Downshifts and upshifts made in mid corner without upsetting the car's balance. Fractions of a second gained on every shift in an event where a hundreth of a second can be the difference between the top cars. I've autoxed for many years, been to driving schools at Bondurant and Jim Russell, and feel very competent with a stick. Still for me, on the track, there is no doubt PDK has allowed me to be faster.
But what's it like in normal driving? My driving style has actually changed very little. If you drive PDK in manual mode on the street like I do 90+% of the time the experience is not that different from a MT. Sure, the interface you use has changed, but the level of involvement has changed very little. I still pay attention to revs, upshift and downshift when I want/need to select the proper gear for conditions and generally drive the car just like it was a manual. The difference is that I'm working a lever in one plane or pulling paddles instead of working a lever through a pattern and pumping a pedal. Now there is definitely skill involved in working that lever and pumping that pedal but honestly I've been there and done that many, many, many, times; I really don't need more practice.
PDK has advantages on the street, the biggest of course being that when necessary it can be used in auto mode. It can be slightly more efficient in terms of fuel economy; in 7th gear at 80mph the engine is turning just slightly over 2100 rpm. It also has some features that may not be widely known, such as when pulling and holding the downshift paddle in manual mode the transmission automatically downshifts sequentially through each gear. It's fun to come into a corner and time the downshifts so that you're in just the right gear as you enter and exit the turn; not that different from selecting the right gear with a MT. Since I no longer have to worry about a clutch pedal I've started to experiment with left foot braking. It feels strange but I think it might be an advantage on track and it's a new skill to learn.
If "involvement" means more effort with your arms and legs then a MT is more "involving" and maybe we should all go back to crank starters, manual steering and brakes, non electric seats and windows, etc etc. Ok, I'm being facetious. The bottom line is I feel no less "involved" in my daily driving with PDK than I did with a MT; it's somewhat different but still very entertaining and thrilling when you want it to be. A no-lift foot to the floor shift sounds almost F1 race car quick with the engine and PSE howling in the background; it's pretty stimulating. As others have pointed out, there is no universal "right" answer to the question of PDK or MT. I can only speak for myself; the longer I've had PDK the more I've enjoyed it. My car is at least as much fun to drive as any MT car I've ever owned, it's unquestionably faster, I love having the latest technology, and I have no regrets about my choice whatsoever. YMMV.
Sorry for the length of this, James. I got on a roll. Hope it's helpful.
You've driven manuals; I don't need to tell you what's fun or enjoyable about driving one so I'll concentrate on my impression of PDK. As an autoxer, PDK has been a big advantage. No more concerns about whether time will be lost by upshifting on the straight at the expense of lost time on the downshift for the corner. Always in the right gear coming out of a turn with maximum acceleration. No need to lift the throttle and lose acceleration for gearchanges. Downshifts and upshifts made in mid corner without upsetting the car's balance. Fractions of a second gained on every shift in an event where a hundreth of a second can be the difference between the top cars. I've autoxed for many years, been to driving schools at Bondurant and Jim Russell, and feel very competent with a stick. Still for me, on the track, there is no doubt PDK has allowed me to be faster.
But what's it like in normal driving? My driving style has actually changed very little. If you drive PDK in manual mode on the street like I do 90+% of the time the experience is not that different from a MT. Sure, the interface you use has changed, but the level of involvement has changed very little. I still pay attention to revs, upshift and downshift when I want/need to select the proper gear for conditions and generally drive the car just like it was a manual. The difference is that I'm working a lever in one plane or pulling paddles instead of working a lever through a pattern and pumping a pedal. Now there is definitely skill involved in working that lever and pumping that pedal but honestly I've been there and done that many, many, many, times; I really don't need more practice.
PDK has advantages on the street, the biggest of course being that when necessary it can be used in auto mode. It can be slightly more efficient in terms of fuel economy; in 7th gear at 80mph the engine is turning just slightly over 2100 rpm. It also has some features that may not be widely known, such as when pulling and holding the downshift paddle in manual mode the transmission automatically downshifts sequentially through each gear. It's fun to come into a corner and time the downshifts so that you're in just the right gear as you enter and exit the turn; not that different from selecting the right gear with a MT. Since I no longer have to worry about a clutch pedal I've started to experiment with left foot braking. It feels strange but I think it might be an advantage on track and it's a new skill to learn.
If "involvement" means more effort with your arms and legs then a MT is more "involving" and maybe we should all go back to crank starters, manual steering and brakes, non electric seats and windows, etc etc. Ok, I'm being facetious. The bottom line is I feel no less "involved" in my daily driving with PDK than I did with a MT; it's somewhat different but still very entertaining and thrilling when you want it to be. A no-lift foot to the floor shift sounds almost F1 race car quick with the engine and PSE howling in the background; it's pretty stimulating. As others have pointed out, there is no universal "right" answer to the question of PDK or MT. I can only speak for myself; the longer I've had PDK the more I've enjoyed it. My car is at least as much fun to drive as any MT car I've ever owned, it's unquestionably faster, I love having the latest technology, and I have no regrets about my choice whatsoever. YMMV.
Sorry for the length of this, James. I got on a roll. Hope it's helpful.
07-28-2011, 04:25 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
I agree with a lot of what Mike says, but not all.
I had an '02 C4S with 6MT for years, now have an '09 C2S. Tracked them both quite a bit.
The P-car is not my daily driver, but when I do drive it work - through SF Bay Area traffic - I'm glad I have it. For non-traffic conditions, no difference really.
On the track, it's a mixed bag. Definitely faster, as the car shifts faster than I ever could. I also can shift in places on the track where I didn't before, like mid-corner. That means I might drop down a gear on corner entry where I wouldn't previously, because I would have to upshift at a bad time and upset the car. PDK shifts so smoothly you can shift anywhere.
However, I do miss the thrill of being hard on the brakes at the end of a straight, slowing from maybe 130+ and heel-toeing down a couple gears. Doing it right made me feel like Michael Schummacher (well - sorta).
IMO, It's a personal thing, no right or wrong decision.
I had an '02 C4S with 6MT for years, now have an '09 C2S. Tracked them both quite a bit.
The P-car is not my daily driver, but when I do drive it work - through SF Bay Area traffic - I'm glad I have it. For non-traffic conditions, no difference really.
On the track, it's a mixed bag. Definitely faster, as the car shifts faster than I ever could. I also can shift in places on the track where I didn't before, like mid-corner. That means I might drop down a gear on corner entry where I wouldn't previously, because I would have to upshift at a bad time and upset the car. PDK shifts so smoothly you can shift anywhere.
However, I do miss the thrill of being hard on the brakes at the end of a straight, slowing from maybe 130+ and heel-toeing down a couple gears. Doing it right made me feel like Michael Schummacher (well - sorta).
IMO, It's a personal thing, no right or wrong decision.
07-28-2011, 04:36 PM
#18
Manual is more involving, lol. It "involves" using brain energy to match engine speed and gearing, and also "involves" physical energy of the left foot to work the clutch. Pulling a paddle/lever "involves" less mental and physical energy.
That said, you can take all the energy saved and use it on being faster with the PDK.
That said, you can take all the energy saved and use it on being faster with the PDK.
07-28-2011, 04:49 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
Manual is more involving, lol. It "involves" using brain energy to match engine speed and gearing, and also "involves" physical energy of the left foot to work the clutch. Pulling a paddle/lever "involves" less mental and physical energy.
That said, you can take all the energy saved and use it on being faster with the PDK.
That said, you can take all the energy saved and use it on being faster with the PDK.
I would argue that the decision to shift manually with a PDK or shift with a manual tranny has the same information bandwidth or 'energy' per your terms. Physical energy is a different matter.
07-28-2011, 04:51 PM
#20
Nordschleife Master
... If "involvement" means more effort with your arms and legs then a MT is more "involving" and maybe we should all go back to crank starters, manual steering and brakes, non electric seats and windows, etc etc. Ok, I'm being facetious. The bottom line is I feel no less "involved" in my daily driving with PDK than I did with a MT; it's somewhat different but still very entertaining and thrilling when you want it to be. A no-lift foot to the floor shift sounds almost F1 race car quick with the engine and PSE howling in the background; it's pretty stimulating. As others have pointed out, there is no universal "right" answer to the question of PDK or MT. I can only speak for myself; the longer I've had PDK the more I've enjoyed it. My car is at least as much fun to drive as any MT car I've ever owned, it's unquestionably faster, I love having the latest technology, and I have no regrets about my choice whatsoever. YMMV. ...
07-28-2011, 05:03 PM
#21
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Thanks Everyone. Great feed back. Mike, no worries I want true experiences so long is good. PJorgen, I hear what you mean. It is nice to have that feeling.
I will have to see about driving a PDK for a longer time. My worry has been that at some point you end up driving in D most of the time and not shifting. It is good to hear owners that are shifting. I don't want it to be like my MB E63. Yes it was fun to paddle shift for awhile but now it is straight auto all the time. Now before any of you jump on me. I am not comparing the cars nor am I comparing the transmissions. What I am trying to say is it is sometimes a mind set. Paddle shifting is fun in the beginning and then well you just don't do it anymore.
I love driving sporty cars both daily drivers and true sports cars. As an example I would never own a Ferrari F1 out of warranty. With Porsche I feel safer having a PDK.
I do see the advantages of driving a better lap and find new driving techniques. In all the previous threads people seem to cling to F1 type shifting which I get, but I am not paid to race cars. At times I wish I was. I just was worried the PDK numbs the driving experience. I love the performance and feel and character of the 911. As often as I have owned other sports cars I always come back to the 911. For me there is nothing else like it.
I do recognize my questions and wonder is subjective as so many aspects of Porsche ownership is, but thank you all for writing your thoughts. I welcome everyones thoughts.
Cheers,
I will have to see about driving a PDK for a longer time. My worry has been that at some point you end up driving in D most of the time and not shifting. It is good to hear owners that are shifting. I don't want it to be like my MB E63. Yes it was fun to paddle shift for awhile but now it is straight auto all the time. Now before any of you jump on me. I am not comparing the cars nor am I comparing the transmissions. What I am trying to say is it is sometimes a mind set. Paddle shifting is fun in the beginning and then well you just don't do it anymore.
I love driving sporty cars both daily drivers and true sports cars. As an example I would never own a Ferrari F1 out of warranty. With Porsche I feel safer having a PDK.
I do see the advantages of driving a better lap and find new driving techniques. In all the previous threads people seem to cling to F1 type shifting which I get, but I am not paid to race cars. At times I wish I was. I just was worried the PDK numbs the driving experience. I love the performance and feel and character of the 911. As often as I have owned other sports cars I always come back to the 911. For me there is nothing else like it.
I do recognize my questions and wonder is subjective as so many aspects of Porsche ownership is, but thank you all for writing your thoughts. I welcome everyones thoughts.
Cheers,
07-28-2011, 05:20 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
I agree with a lot of what Mike says, but not all.
I had an '02 C4S with 6MT for years, now have an '09 C2S. Tracked them both quite a bit.
The P-car is not my daily driver, but when I do drive it work - through SF Bay Area traffic - I'm glad I have it. For non-traffic conditions, no difference really.
On the track, it's a mixed bag. Definitely faster, as the car shifts faster than I ever could. I also can shift in places on the track where I didn't before, like mid-corner. That means I might drop down a gear on corner entry where I wouldn't previously, because I would have to upshift at a bad time and upset the car. PDK shifts so smoothly you can shift anywhere.
However, I do miss the thrill of being hard on the brakes at the end of a straight, slowing from maybe 130+ and heel-toeing down a couple gears. Doing it right made me feel like Michael Schummacher (well - sorta).
IMO, It's a personal thing, no right or wrong decision.
I had an '02 C4S with 6MT for years, now have an '09 C2S. Tracked them both quite a bit.
The P-car is not my daily driver, but when I do drive it work - through SF Bay Area traffic - I'm glad I have it. For non-traffic conditions, no difference really.
On the track, it's a mixed bag. Definitely faster, as the car shifts faster than I ever could. I also can shift in places on the track where I didn't before, like mid-corner. That means I might drop down a gear on corner entry where I wouldn't previously, because I would have to upshift at a bad time and upset the car. PDK shifts so smoothly you can shift anywhere.
However, I do miss the thrill of being hard on the brakes at the end of a straight, slowing from maybe 130+ and heel-toeing down a couple gears. Doing it right made me feel like Michael Schummacher (well - sorta).
IMO, It's a personal thing, no right or wrong decision.
07-28-2011, 06:03 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
<snip>
The majority of my driving is in the desert (Palm Desert) & manual is a lot of fun. The problem is when on occasion I take the P car to LA & get stuck in traffic. Every time I did that in the manual car, my left leg was tired & the manual was a pain. The PDK seems to be a good compromise for all situations.
The majority of my driving is in the desert (Palm Desert) & manual is a lot of fun. The problem is when on occasion I take the P car to LA & get stuck in traffic. Every time I did that in the manual car, my left leg was tired & the manual was a pain. The PDK seems to be a good compromise for all situations.
Marshal
07-28-2011, 06:51 PM
#24
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I made the change from 6 speed to manual and find absolutely no change in my driving habits. About the only difference is that when my wife and I go for an Icee on a hot afternoon it is easier to drink the Icee driving the PDK than it was driving the 6 speed. I drive the PDK in "auto" when I need one hand to do something other than steering and in manual when both hands are available for driving. I like both, have had both, and would go the PDK route again.
Gary
07-28-2011, 07:24 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
07-28-2011, 11:08 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
We have a manual 2005 Boxster and a C4S with PDK and paddle shifters. I like both but am dreaming about a 7 speed 991 C2S with hill assist for Seattle.
07-28-2011, 11:34 PM
#28
Race Director
I ve been browsing through all this and in the last 2 Panorama issues they've been covering this debate.
Why can't you all just accept that people drive what they like and not put down someone elses choice?
Why can't you all just accept that people drive what they like and not put down someone elses choice?
07-28-2011, 11:39 PM
#29
PDK is amazing, but I found it boring (even in manual Sport mode). I sold it - it'll be manuals only for me from now on... That said, if I ever had to deal with a commute with traffic, or God forbid a disability like some of our members, then PDK would be perfect. Just depends on what floats your boat - my boat happens to have a clutch pedal.
07-28-2011, 11:53 PM
#30
My GTS has the 6 spd manual and it is my Fun car. The PDK is faster, more convenient, better in traffic, safer while texting (kidding), easier to track, latest technology, etc. But for me, my Porsche is my fun sports car and I enjoy the feeling/interaction of rowing the gears. I don't deal with stop and go traffic and have bluetooth to talk on my phone while shifting. I had a new M3 with the DCT trans and loved it for many of the same reasons most like the PDK but it sat in the garage while I drove the GTS. To each his own- if I had one of each in my garage, I would definitely drive and enjoy the PDK for daily drives, track events or traveling to LA or Seattle but for a 'fun' drive through the mountain roads or a spirited drive home the long way, I would take my 6 spd manual. That's one of the big pluses of Porsche- lots of choices and few wrong answers. Good luck with your choice.