RE: 993 prices more than 997?
03-01-2011, 06:16 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
RE: 993 prices more than 997?
It seems alot of 993 are priced higher than 997 on the used car market.
This applies particulary to lower milage cars (<30K) and certain models such as the C2S, C4S, and 993 TT
Low milage in an older car usaully translates into little use or potentially rollback issues.
What gives?
Nostalgia.
You have to admit, it is nice to have owned a 993 for a while and realize that there has been very little depreciation - unlike the 997.
Of course, if you bought one and drove it 20K miles and had to deal with any repairs on a 10+ year old car out of warranty - you would be upside down right away.
Also a 30K mile selling for $60K right now, would be alot harder to sell for similar $ if your drove it and looked to sell it in 1 to 2 years with 50K on the odometer.
This applies particulary to lower milage cars (<30K) and certain models such as the C2S, C4S, and 993 TT
Low milage in an older car usaully translates into little use or potentially rollback issues.
What gives?
Nostalgia.
You have to admit, it is nice to have owned a 993 for a while and realize that there has been very little depreciation - unlike the 997.
Of course, if you bought one and drove it 20K miles and had to deal with any repairs on a 10+ year old car out of warranty - you would be upside down right away.
Also a 30K mile selling for $60K right now, would be alot harder to sell for similar $ if your drove it and looked to sell it in 1 to 2 years with 50K on the odometer.
03-01-2011, 03:18 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Having owned a 993TT and currently owning a Cayman, I have to say that the overall build quality is not on the same level. My 97 993 was pretty much bulletproof and built to last. I never had any issues and it was my DD.
That said - IMHO the 993 is holding value because -Last of aircooled, some percieve the 993 was the last pure Porsche, is collector item, not as high of production numbers as 996 or 997s, and fewer remaining.
If I didn't value the modern creature comforts as much, I'd go back to a 993 as a DD. Truth is - current cars are more comfortable, better a/c, easier to drive, faster, have cupholders, etc.
That said - IMHO the 993 is holding value because -Last of aircooled, some percieve the 993 was the last pure Porsche, is collector item, not as high of production numbers as 996 or 997s, and fewer remaining.
If I didn't value the modern creature comforts as much, I'd go back to a 993 as a DD. Truth is - current cars are more comfortable, better a/c, easier to drive, faster, have cupholders, etc.
03-01-2011, 08:00 PM
#3
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There are lots of reasons the 993's, and especially the widebodies, hold their value.
I love my newer porsches, particularly as a daily driver, but you can always buy a new one. They feel disposable.
The 993 reeks of quality in ways the newer cars can't match. The leather, carpeting, even the quality of the rubber and plastic bits. The car was simply built to an ideal, first and foremost. Making a profit was way secondary. And they are every bit as fun to drive as the new ones, maybe even more so.
I love my newer porsches, particularly as a daily driver, but you can always buy a new one. They feel disposable.
The 993 reeks of quality in ways the newer cars can't match. The leather, carpeting, even the quality of the rubber and plastic bits. The car was simply built to an ideal, first and foremost. Making a profit was way secondary. And they are every bit as fun to drive as the new ones, maybe even more so.
03-01-2011, 08:25 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
That said - IMHO the 993 is holding value because -Last of aircooled, some percieve the 993 was the last pure Porsche, is collector item, not as high of production numbers as 996 or 997s, and fewer remaining.
If I didn't value the modern creature comforts as much, I'd go back to a 993 as a DD. Truth is - current cars are more comfortable, better a/c, easier to drive, faster, have cupholders, etc.
If I didn't value the modern creature comforts as much, I'd go back to a 993 as a DD. Truth is - current cars are more comfortable, better a/c, easier to drive, faster, have cupholders, etc.
Basically, it's a collectors item and much rarer than 997s that have been MASS produced, hence they do not hold their value as much as 993.
Mind you, the 997 MIGHT become the next 993, as the next generation 991 looks to be larger, less mechanical (too many gadgets), more GT oriented (huge centre console with 10zillion buttons, larger backseats), and may take come parts off the VW parts bin and who knows what the quality might be... so in an essense, 997 might become the LAST TRUE Water-cooled 911!
03-01-2011, 09:21 PM
#5
Poseur
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
You have to remember, however, that the 993 was always going to be the last air cooled 911 to Zuffenhausen. It was a gap filler, between the old 901/911 and 964 and the water boxers. As the gap filler, not that much engineering went into them, in truth. The engines were no more developed than the 964s. Many of the body engineering issues were half baked because it was a transitional model. Believe it or not, the 996 and the 997 are a better engineered and manufactured automobile. Porsche knew that the 993 would be the end of the air cooled engines even before they started selling them in 1995. They knew because of noise and environmental factors that were closing in on them that were impossible to reach with an air and oil cooled engine. Power production was severely limited. It came down to physics, and the impossibility of dissipating heat in those engines. They, in turn, put little thought and time into the bodies. The reason is very simple as to why the 993 has endured--it's the last air cooled "911" and many were simply sunshine cars. With lower miles on them their used prices command a higher price. However, that's a real distraction. There are many hidden expenses in those cars that an uninformed buyer will discover. Valve guides are short lived, and some things like duel distributors are problematic. Let's not even discuss what you have to resort to if the check strap on your door fails. (Note: It entails welding).
Just remember, no matter how sexy the curvaceous lines of the 993 are, you are still talking about up to a 16 year old car, with aging electrical systems, and plastic components that will be problematic to maintain--more so than a car that was produced in greater numbers, like the 996 or 997. Recall, the 997 has become the most popular "911" that Porsche has ever produced. Zuffenhausen was only just learning about just in time manufacturing when they undertook the 993 project. They have it perfected in the 997. That translates to reliability and less headaches downstream.
Simply do the math on a 993. Divide the purchase price by the number of miles you have driven it and you will be shocked to find how much more you have paid to drive a mile in a 993, compared to a 997.
Just remember, no matter how sexy the curvaceous lines of the 993 are, you are still talking about up to a 16 year old car, with aging electrical systems, and plastic components that will be problematic to maintain--more so than a car that was produced in greater numbers, like the 996 or 997. Recall, the 997 has become the most popular "911" that Porsche has ever produced. Zuffenhausen was only just learning about just in time manufacturing when they undertook the 993 project. They have it perfected in the 997. That translates to reliability and less headaches downstream.
Simply do the math on a 993. Divide the purchase price by the number of miles you have driven it and you will be shocked to find how much more you have paid to drive a mile in a 993, compared to a 997.
03-01-2011, 10:31 PM
#7
You have to remember, however, that the 993 was always going to be the last air cooled 911 to Zuffenhausen. It was a gap filler, between the old 901/911 and 964 and the water boxers. As the gap filler, not that much engineering went into them, in truth. The engines were no more developed than the 964s. Many of the body engineering issues were half baked because it was a transitional model. Believe it or not, the 996 and the 997 are a better engineered and manufactured automobile. Porsche knew that the 993 would be the end of the air cooled engines even before they started selling them in 1995. They knew because of noise and environmental factors that were closing in on them that were impossible to reach with an air and oil cooled engine. Power production was severely limited. It came down to physics, and the impossibility of dissipating heat in those engines. They, in turn, put little thought and time into the bodies. The reason is very simple as to why the 993 has endured--it's the last air cooled "911" and many were simply sunshine cars. With lower miles on them their used prices command a higher price. However, that's a real distraction. There are many hidden expenses in those cars that an uninformed buyer will discover. Valve guides are short lived, and some things like duel distributors are problematic. Let's not even discuss what you have to resort to if the check strap on your door fails. (Note: It entails welding).
Just remember, no matter how sexy the curvaceous lines of the 993 are, you are still talking about up to a 16 year old car, with aging electrical systems, and plastic components that will be problematic to maintain--more so than a car that was produced in greater numbers, like the 996 or 997. Recall, the 997 has become the most popular "911" that Porsche has ever produced. Zuffenhausen was only just learning about just in time manufacturing when they undertook the 993 project. They have it perfected in the 997. That translates to reliability and less headaches downstream.
Simply do the math on a 993. Divide the purchase price by the number of miles you have driven it and you will be shocked to find how much more you have paid to drive a mile in a 993, compared to a 997.
Just remember, no matter how sexy the curvaceous lines of the 993 are, you are still talking about up to a 16 year old car, with aging electrical systems, and plastic components that will be problematic to maintain--more so than a car that was produced in greater numbers, like the 996 or 997. Recall, the 997 has become the most popular "911" that Porsche has ever produced. Zuffenhausen was only just learning about just in time manufacturing when they undertook the 993 project. They have it perfected in the 997. That translates to reliability and less headaches downstream.
Simply do the math on a 993. Divide the purchase price by the number of miles you have driven it and you will be shocked to find how much more you have paid to drive a mile in a 993, compared to a 997.
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03-01-2011, 10:32 PM
#8
993: Low Volume Import ?
I just checked the number of 993's on the market below 40k miles & $100k : 39 in the USA. At the top are four turbos @ +$72k. Fifteen years @ less then 2,500 per year; Puffs ? There are 700 997's on the market. I wonder how many 993's were imported ? The 993's are 10" shorter, 5" narrower (not the awd) and weight about 200 lbs. less. Those turbos are very fast !
03-02-2011, 12:36 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
You have to remember, however, that the 993 was always going to be the last air cooled 911 to Zuffenhausen. It was a gap filler, between the old 901/911 and 964 and the water boxers. As the gap filler, not that much engineering went into them, in truth. The engines were no more developed than the 964s. Many of the body engineering issues were half baked because it was a transitional model. Believe it or not, the 996 and the 997 are a better engineered and manufactured automobile. Porsche knew that the 993 would be the end of the air cooled engines even before they started selling them in 1995. They knew because of noise and environmental factors that were closing in on them that were impossible to reach with an air and oil cooled engine. Power production was severely limited. It came down to physics, and the impossibility of dissipating heat in those engines. They, in turn, put little thought and time into the bodies. The reason is very simple as to why the 993 has endured--it's the last air cooled "911" and many were simply sunshine cars. With lower miles on them their used prices command a higher price. However, that's a real distraction. There are many hidden expenses in those cars that an uninformed buyer will discover. Valve guides are short lived, and some things like duel distributors are problematic. Let's not even discuss what you have to resort to if the check strap on your door fails. (Note: It entails welding).
Just remember, no matter how sexy the curvaceous lines of the 993 are, you are still talking about up to a 16 year old car, with aging electrical systems, and plastic components that will be problematic to maintain--more so than a car that was produced in greater numbers, like the 996 or 997. Recall, the 997 has become the most popular "911" that Porsche has ever produced. Zuffenhausen was only just learning about just in time manufacturing when they undertook the 993 project. They have it perfected in the 997. That translates to reliability and less headaches downstream.
Simply do the math on a 993. Divide the purchase price by the number of miles you have driven it and you will be shocked to find how much more you have paid to drive a mile in a 993, compared to a 997.
Just remember, no matter how sexy the curvaceous lines of the 993 are, you are still talking about up to a 16 year old car, with aging electrical systems, and plastic components that will be problematic to maintain--more so than a car that was produced in greater numbers, like the 996 or 997. Recall, the 997 has become the most popular "911" that Porsche has ever produced. Zuffenhausen was only just learning about just in time manufacturing when they undertook the 993 project. They have it perfected in the 997. That translates to reliability and less headaches downstream.
Simply do the math on a 993. Divide the purchase price by the number of miles you have driven it and you will be shocked to find how much more you have paid to drive a mile in a 993, compared to a 997.
Dan, the perspective (gained over years of 911 ownership) you bring to the table is something that is second to none. Trust me Dan, I lusted for an air-cooled 911 right after I bought my 997.2. After very extensive research through reading magazines, books, forums I made what I believe is the right choice for me which was going for the 3.2 (there too I went for the much maligned 915 gearbox for an even retrofeel) over the 993. Yes the 993 is always billed as the best 911 to own. IMO, the 3.2 is the best classic all-rounder 911 of them all with comparatively lesser running costs (provided you get a car in good mechanical condition) and more sound mechanical parts. But during all that research, I must say this : everywhere/everyone raves about the 993. But for someone who has a 997.2 ...the 3.2 was more appealing to me over the 993. Bullet proof engine (when adequately cared for), torsion bar suspension, Fuch's wheels ..how can one go wrong....really.
03-02-2011, 01:36 AM
#11
Nordschleife Master
last of the air cooled. I get it but they can keep them. the newer cars are where it's at for me. such better intereior looks and far greater performance
with that said, I do hope to own a 993 one day - epsecially if I can steal one!
with that said, I do hope to own a 993 one day - epsecially if I can steal one!
03-02-2011, 12:04 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
My 97 993 was pretty much bulletproof and built to last. I never had any issues and it was my DD.
If I didn't value the modern creature comforts as much, I'd go back to a 993 as a DD. Truth is - current cars are more comfortable, better a/c, easier to drive, faster, have cupholders, etc.
If I didn't value the modern creature comforts as much, I'd go back to a 993 as a DD. Truth is - current cars are more comfortable, better a/c, easier to drive, faster, have cupholders, etc.
If any of the 997 owners on this board have owned a 993 you get it. The sound of closing the door on a 993 sums it all up.
It's personal preference, generational, blah, blah, blah. I can't wait to get another 993 and own both.
03-02-2011, 12:42 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=76429
03-03-2011, 03:11 PM
#14
Race Director
You have to remember, however, that the 993 was always going to be the last air cooled 911 to Zuffenhausen. It was a gap filler, between the old 901/911 and 964 and the water boxers. As the gap filler, not that much engineering went into them, in truth. The engines were no more developed than the 964s. Many of the body engineering issues were half baked because it was a transitional model. Believe it or not, the 996 and the 997 are a better engineered and manufactured automobile. Porsche knew that the 993 would be the end of the air cooled engines even before they started selling them in 1995. They knew because of noise and environmental factors that were closing in on them that were impossible to reach with an air and oil cooled engine. Power production was severely limited. It came down to physics, and the impossibility of dissipating heat in those engines. They, in turn, put little thought and time into the bodies. The reason is very simple as to why the 993 has endured--it's the last air cooled "911" and many were simply sunshine cars. With lower miles on them their used prices command a higher price. However, that's a real distraction. There are many hidden expenses in those cars that an uninformed buyer will discover. Valve guides are short lived, and some things like duel distributors are problematic. Let's not even discuss what you have to resort to if the check strap on your door fails. (Note: It entails welding).
Just remember, no matter how sexy the curvaceous lines of the 993 are, you are still talking about up to a 16 year old car, with aging electrical systems, and plastic components that will be problematic to maintain--more so than a car that was produced in greater numbers, like the 996 or 997. Recall, the 997 has become the most popular "911" that Porsche has ever produced. Zuffenhausen was only just learning about just in time manufacturing when they undertook the 993 project. They have it perfected in the 997. That translates to reliability and less headaches downstream.
Simply do the math on a 993. Divide the purchase price by the number of miles you have driven it and you will be shocked to find how much more you have paid to drive a mile in a 993, compared to a 997.
Just remember, no matter how sexy the curvaceous lines of the 993 are, you are still talking about up to a 16 year old car, with aging electrical systems, and plastic components that will be problematic to maintain--more so than a car that was produced in greater numbers, like the 996 or 997. Recall, the 997 has become the most popular "911" that Porsche has ever produced. Zuffenhausen was only just learning about just in time manufacturing when they undertook the 993 project. They have it perfected in the 997. That translates to reliability and less headaches downstream.
Simply do the math on a 993. Divide the purchase price by the number of miles you have driven it and you will be shocked to find how much more you have paid to drive a mile in a 993, compared to a 997.
1. Not much engineering went into them huh? Have you had a look at the 964 rear suspension compared to the 993 suspension? Furthermore, there wasn't much more engineering to do. It had the same basic bits and bobs as the 60s cars. How many ways must you re-engineer a engine carrier for example when its worked for 30 years? Thats like saying a 997 has little if any further engineering than a 996.
2. Talk to me about this body engineering issues...like what? If all you have is the door check straps, this is a hugely weak argument.
3. How, pray tell is a 996 a better engineered and manufactured vehicle. The fact that you bring up JIT makes me laugh as it has no impact on the actual build quality of the vehicle. It might make for a more efficient production line, but who cares when you are talking about the build quality. I certainly don't care if my door panels were sitting at the factory for 3 weeks or whether they just got there from a supplier when they were bolted into the car. What I do care about is that the 993 interior is screwed together, whereas the 996+ are snapped together.
4. Power production was severely limited. 282bhp out of a 2v sohc engine is severely limited? What do you call 296bhp out of DOHC 4v engine with variable valve timing. Wow, a whole 14bhp out of much better flowing heads, better valve timing operations, and much more efficient cooling. Talk about severely limited. 320bhp by the end of the production run? Wow, talk about steps forward.
5. Lets talk about those hidden expenses...you can list them at any time. Yes, the valve guides are total crap....what else you got? The door check straps? Welding? Oh my god. If you aren't a concours person, you can have this problem adequately repaired for less than $300 by a good bodyshop.
6. Furthermore, valve guides are easy to identify with a PPI, and are not an instant failure problem. They slowly get worse and make themselves known with ever increasing oil consumption. Dual distributors? https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...r-rebuild.html A whopping $125 for a rebuild on that unit. Do they regularly fail? You tell me?
When your IMS is getting ready to grenade your M96/7, you get no warning and need to replace the entire motor. Gee, I wonder what i'd want.
The bottom line is that you may have owned 911s since 1965, but your knowledge seems to be fading or you are simply overlooking the 997s issues.
All these cars are well built and well engineered, but there is zero doubt in my mind which one was built to a higher standard.
