Chris Harris Op/Ed in Excellence 2/11--any thoughts?
#18
I have not read the Chris Harris article but I have seen and respect his work.
I am driving my first Porsche now and it still feels special to me.
I came from BMW and see how they have turned it from the great car it was to a great brand for the aspirational customer. They get heavier every year, and need more power, which makes them heavier, which makes them need more power. And the next thing you know they offer free maintenance and the shade tree repair shops falter and we are all captive to the new heavy *** family car BMW instead of the classic hi rev hot rod DIY drivers car BMW. BMW is commercially successful, but is lost as a brand. Their dealers are oriented to grinding up customers from Lexus and Honda, and have no respect for the heritage of the brand, and no respect for customers who have been driving BMW's for 30 years. My 1988 E28 M5 weighs 3400+ pounds, about the same as the new 1-Series M. BMW has seen the last of me. Don't even get me started on the local dealer.
I don't want to see the BMW travesty happen to Porsche, and after being in the Audis around my office full of automatic everything and technology to the max, I fear Porsche may slide in that direction. The more they put in these cars the higher the margins and the more reliant on the dealer the customer becomes. I believe the VW people would love to turn Porsche into an alternative to BMW because BMW is a huge commercial success. I love Porsche, and I think that would suck in the worst way. I have not read the Chris Harris article, but I bet we would hit it off pretty well.
I am driving my first Porsche now and it still feels special to me.
I came from BMW and see how they have turned it from the great car it was to a great brand for the aspirational customer. They get heavier every year, and need more power, which makes them heavier, which makes them need more power. And the next thing you know they offer free maintenance and the shade tree repair shops falter and we are all captive to the new heavy *** family car BMW instead of the classic hi rev hot rod DIY drivers car BMW. BMW is commercially successful, but is lost as a brand. Their dealers are oriented to grinding up customers from Lexus and Honda, and have no respect for the heritage of the brand, and no respect for customers who have been driving BMW's for 30 years. My 1988 E28 M5 weighs 3400+ pounds, about the same as the new 1-Series M. BMW has seen the last of me. Don't even get me started on the local dealer.
I don't want to see the BMW travesty happen to Porsche, and after being in the Audis around my office full of automatic everything and technology to the max, I fear Porsche may slide in that direction. The more they put in these cars the higher the margins and the more reliant on the dealer the customer becomes. I believe the VW people would love to turn Porsche into an alternative to BMW because BMW is a huge commercial success. I love Porsche, and I think that would suck in the worst way. I have not read the Chris Harris article, but I bet we would hit it off pretty well.
#19
Listening to customers and basing product decisions on output from focus groups is what brought the old GM to its knees. Customers by and large have no idea what they want - the real innovation comes from those who have the ability to imagine and then build something that customers wouldn't necessarily know to ask for.
I also agree with the comparison with BMW. The fact that they've been 'listening to customers' is why we now have a 5 Series that in 550i guise is nudging 4500lbs...
#21
One more thing. Before I bought the 997, I called BMWCCA where I have been a member for 25 years and told them basically what I said in the paragraph above, and told them I was the perfect candidate for a new M5 or a new M3, but that I hated the cars and hated my dealer even more.
Their response? "Thank you for the call. We hear this from our long time BMWCCA members all the time." I don't doubt Edgy's view for a minute, that Porsche is making what the customers want. BMW is doing the same thing, but they both care less every day about the long-term enthusiasts.
Their response? "Thank you for the call. We hear this from our long time BMWCCA members all the time." I don't doubt Edgy's view for a minute, that Porsche is making what the customers want. BMW is doing the same thing, but they both care less every day about the long-term enthusiasts.
#22
One more thing. Before I bought the 997, I called BMWCCA where I have been a member for 25 years and told them basically what I said in the paragraph above, and told them I was the perfect candidate for a new M5 or a new M3, but that I hated the cars and hated my dealer even more.
Their response? "Thank you for the call. We hear this from our long time BMWCCA members all the time." I don't doubt Edgy's view for a minute, that Porsche is making what the customers want. BMW is doing the same thing, but they both care less every day about the long-term enthusiasts.
Their response? "Thank you for the call. We hear this from our long time BMWCCA members all the time." I don't doubt Edgy's view for a minute, that Porsche is making what the customers want. BMW is doing the same thing, but they both care less every day about the long-term enthusiasts.
#23
I have not read the Chris Harris article but I have seen and respect his work.
I am driving my first Porsche now and it still feels special to me.
I came from BMW and see how they have turned it from the great car it was to a great brand for the aspirational customer. They get heavier every year, and need more power, which makes them heavier, which makes them need more power. And the next thing you know they offer free maintenance and the shade tree repair shops falter and we are all captive to the new heavy *** family car BMW instead of the classic hi rev hot rod DIY drivers car BMW. BMW is commercially successful, but is lost as a brand. Their dealers are oriented to grinding up customers from Lexus and Honda, and have no respect for the heritage of the brand, and no respect for customers who have been driving BMW's for 30 years. My 1988 E28 M5 weighs 3400+ pounds, about the same as the new 1-Series M. BMW has seen the last of me. Don't even get me started on the local dealer.
I don't want to see the BMW travesty happen to Porsche, and after being in the Audis around my office full of automatic everything and technology to the max, I fear Porsche may slide in that direction. The more they put in these cars the higher the margins and the more reliant on the dealer the customer becomes. I believe the VW people would love to turn Porsche into an alternative to BMW because BMW is a huge commercial success. I love Porsche, and I think that would suck in the worst way. I have not read the Chris Harris article, but I bet we would hit it off pretty well.
I am driving my first Porsche now and it still feels special to me.
I came from BMW and see how they have turned it from the great car it was to a great brand for the aspirational customer. They get heavier every year, and need more power, which makes them heavier, which makes them need more power. And the next thing you know they offer free maintenance and the shade tree repair shops falter and we are all captive to the new heavy *** family car BMW instead of the classic hi rev hot rod DIY drivers car BMW. BMW is commercially successful, but is lost as a brand. Their dealers are oriented to grinding up customers from Lexus and Honda, and have no respect for the heritage of the brand, and no respect for customers who have been driving BMW's for 30 years. My 1988 E28 M5 weighs 3400+ pounds, about the same as the new 1-Series M. BMW has seen the last of me. Don't even get me started on the local dealer.
I don't want to see the BMW travesty happen to Porsche, and after being in the Audis around my office full of automatic everything and technology to the max, I fear Porsche may slide in that direction. The more they put in these cars the higher the margins and the more reliant on the dealer the customer becomes. I believe the VW people would love to turn Porsche into an alternative to BMW because BMW is a huge commercial success. I love Porsche, and I think that would suck in the worst way. I have not read the Chris Harris article, but I bet we would hit it off pretty well.
#24
Despite the Panamera interior; longer wheelbase; funny rear end I think I read that Porsche has not "fattened" the 991. BMW/Audi/Mercs are bloated - even their so called sporting variants - M/S/AMG.
#25
Yes, BMW is a huge disappointment. They had me for 25 yrs and no more - the brand is off somewhere - like that saying, where they're coming from, I don't want to be.
But Porsche still seems to be about being Porsche - I hope it doesn't change.
But Porsche still seems to be about being Porsche - I hope it doesn't change.
#26
Don't know if I would compare the current multiple 911 model choices to what Porsche offered back in 1967. The 911R was limited to a production of 20 or so examples in total, so that was not an 'available' model to the general public. Cabrios had not been offered by Porsche since the last 356 C model was built in Zuffenhausen in 1965 (of which I had one). So basically in MY1967 you had, as I remember, the choice of a 912, a 911 or a 911S in coupe or a soft rear Targa, period! z356
#27
I'm in disagreement. I'm on my 4th Porsche, started with an 85 Carrera 3.2, and this one is the best in every way. I love this car and I think Porsche nailed it. The only area that I fault it is in the noise department. Its lacking there. I think PSE should be standard. But my 997.2S with SPASM is liveable as a DD. Bear in mind we all have our definition of whats liveable. Many people get in my 997.2S and say its rough and bumpy. Imagine them gettiing in a GT3. The 997.2 is easily liveable without compromise. I couldnt say that about my previous 3. Plus it performs better than all my others. Maybe its so good that he feels cars that lack in certain ways make it more "interesting". You could really lose it in my 3.2. My 997 has far higher limits.
I think Porsche is in fact getting better and others (apart from Ferrari) less so. I remember when I had my previous Porsche's, that they were quick but other cars were as quick if not quicker (AMG, M5's etc) although the Porsche was light and nimble and handled beautifully. Now, apart from super cars, my 997.2S doesnt have much to fear. Its also not tacking on the pounds. When I left my BMW M3 and went to my 3rd Porsche 996 40th anni, i was immediately impressed by the lighter weight and more crisp handling (far better car IMO). The 997.2S makes that car look like a vintage in every area - its so much better.
Could Porsche make lighter, rawer, louder cars than the regular 997 Carrera - yes. They are called the GT3, RS, Boxster Spyders etc. Fantastic cars and I considered them all. But for me, they arent daily liveable. Gt3 is "better" (louder, faster, more direct / raw) but not for what I want. Maybe some day when I have more garage space becasue I will have to have the GT3 AND a 997 or 991 Carrera.
I think Porsche is in fact getting better and others (apart from Ferrari) less so. I remember when I had my previous Porsche's, that they were quick but other cars were as quick if not quicker (AMG, M5's etc) although the Porsche was light and nimble and handled beautifully. Now, apart from super cars, my 997.2S doesnt have much to fear. Its also not tacking on the pounds. When I left my BMW M3 and went to my 3rd Porsche 996 40th anni, i was immediately impressed by the lighter weight and more crisp handling (far better car IMO). The 997.2S makes that car look like a vintage in every area - its so much better.
Could Porsche make lighter, rawer, louder cars than the regular 997 Carrera - yes. They are called the GT3, RS, Boxster Spyders etc. Fantastic cars and I considered them all. But for me, they arent daily liveable. Gt3 is "better" (louder, faster, more direct / raw) but not for what I want. Maybe some day when I have more garage space becasue I will have to have the GT3 AND a 997 or 991 Carrera.
#28
Mr. Harris makes some pretty strong and interesting comments regarding Porsche's, and in particular, the 911's direction. He believes the 997.2 is too watered down with too many variations. The DFI engine whirrs "sillently"; the steering "inert", the switchgear "average". He basically states the need to make the 911 "special" again.
His points are well-taken. He only has passion for today's GT-Series cars. I think the question is this: Can Porsche make a series car that can be driven with passion on the road and bring excitement on the track without costing more than it does today? Maybe the GT3 can be a DD, but it seems a bit hard-core for that. I'm one of the few that admit to liking the nav system, the leather, power seats, sunroof, etc.
Being a Porsche newbie and having dreamed of owning one of these since about age 5, I have to admit that I expected to be blown away from my first drive, but I wasn't. It's likely that I'm an early middle-aged guy now, so blood-curdling excitement doesn't occur like it used to, and maybe I felt (and still do, a bit) some buyer's remorse spending what I did. However, the car, its raw (for me) steering, ride, and power have increasingly impressed me over over the past 9 months of ownership. The car has more passion than anything I've driven before--but my '02 MINI Cooper S was special too--just not as solid or powerful. My '91 MR2 Turbo felt like a rocket when the turbo kicked in and was a blast. Since I'm not coming from a high-end vehicle, my 911's sound and power are special to me, but I haven't driven a 993 or earlier car.
Can a car like a no-frills 993 even be made today? Would people buy it? Even Lotus will soon be changing their Elise to make it more of a DD. What do you think--are today's 911's too boring and corporate? Is Mr. Harris correct?
His points are well-taken. He only has passion for today's GT-Series cars. I think the question is this: Can Porsche make a series car that can be driven with passion on the road and bring excitement on the track without costing more than it does today? Maybe the GT3 can be a DD, but it seems a bit hard-core for that. I'm one of the few that admit to liking the nav system, the leather, power seats, sunroof, etc.
Being a Porsche newbie and having dreamed of owning one of these since about age 5, I have to admit that I expected to be blown away from my first drive, but I wasn't. It's likely that I'm an early middle-aged guy now, so blood-curdling excitement doesn't occur like it used to, and maybe I felt (and still do, a bit) some buyer's remorse spending what I did. However, the car, its raw (for me) steering, ride, and power have increasingly impressed me over over the past 9 months of ownership. The car has more passion than anything I've driven before--but my '02 MINI Cooper S was special too--just not as solid or powerful. My '91 MR2 Turbo felt like a rocket when the turbo kicked in and was a blast. Since I'm not coming from a high-end vehicle, my 911's sound and power are special to me, but I haven't driven a 993 or earlier car.
Can a car like a no-frills 993 even be made today? Would people buy it? Even Lotus will soon be changing their Elise to make it more of a DD. What do you think--are today's 911's too boring and corporate? Is Mr. Harris correct?
Sure you could get a stripped down base model, but the 911 is a touring car, so it would be a bit odd to not have some of these options.
Would anybody buy a 993 today? Hell yes. If I had a choice between a brand new 993 or a brand new 997, I'd get the 993. That said, I'm far in the minority here.
I also agree that I wasn't terribly impressed when driving my first 997. If you were to blindfold me, I'm not sure if I could have told you if I was in a 911 or a BMW or a (insert sports car here). They have lost some of that individuality.
Almost all major manufacturers offer broad model lines. I disagree that a car model is watered down by the weakest offering. The fact that Mercedes builds the A class doesn't diminish the SLS AMG. In fact the Boxster opened up Porsche ownership to a much wider group of buyers, many of whom have no doubt moved on to more expensive models in the line. Good business!
However, you better believe that the A series dillutes the brand image of Mercedes. They just happen to be lucky that their bigger models are damn good cars and people will continue to buy them. Ever wonder why there is no A-Class in the US?
Btw, since you mention "facts", care to share your statistics for boxster buyers who end up buying higher end models?
Your last two words explain the whole conundrum..."good business" I'll argue that Porsche used to be an engineering company who built cars and made some money, now its a Financial institution that can still build a decent car.
I'm in disagreement. I'm on my 4th Porsche, started with an 85 Carrera 3.2, and this one is the best in every way. Plus it performs better than all my others. Maybe its so good that he feels cars that lack in certain ways make it more "interesting". You could really lose it in my 3.2. My 997 has far higher limits.
I think Porsche is in fact getting better and others (apart from Ferrari) less so. I remember when I had my previous Porsche's, that they were quick but other cars were as quick if not quicker (AMG, M5's etc) although the Porsche was light and nimble and handled beautifully. Now, apart from super cars, my 997.2S doesnt have much to fear. Its also not tacking on the pounds. When I left my BMW M3 and went to my 3rd Porsche 996 40th anni, i was immediately impressed by the lighter weight and more crisp handling (far better car IMO). The 997.2S makes that car look like a vintage in every area - its so much better.
I think Porsche is in fact getting better and others (apart from Ferrari) less so. I remember when I had my previous Porsche's, that they were quick but other cars were as quick if not quicker (AMG, M5's etc) although the Porsche was light and nimble and handled beautifully. Now, apart from super cars, my 997.2S doesnt have much to fear. Its also not tacking on the pounds. When I left my BMW M3 and went to my 3rd Porsche 996 40th anni, i was immediately impressed by the lighter weight and more crisp handling (far better car IMO). The 997.2S makes that car look like a vintage in every area - its so much better.
I completely disagree about other cars. BMWs are heavier but they are just as technically good as the earlier cars. Want to talk about getting better, how about the Ford Mustang GT. That car has stepped it up in a major way. And of course your 911 feels better than an M3...one is a modified family sedan, the other is a touring car chassis from the beginning.
I think what owners of older cars like is not the performance. Hell, most modern sports cars would embarrass a 993 in almost every way...including the 996 and 997...but the 993 lets you feel everything...you feel one with the car at any speed. Call it nostalgic BS, but thats why these cars are as popular as they are...and hell, aside from cheesy a/c, there is no reason you couldn't daily drive a 993.
#29
In recent months when the Porsche sales figures come out people comment on how the 4 doors are carrying the company and how the 911 market is soft.
When I go to track events I hear conversations like those that mirror the sentiments of the article. The rawness of the 911 is slipping away.
And I don't expect anyone who has plunked down 90+K for a new 997.2 to speak about the wrong direction Porsche (MIGHT?) be taking.
I am not an expert on the history but I see and hear enough to believe that the article does have some merit. And the next carrera model will say allot as to where Porsche decides to place and market it's brand.
When I go to track events I hear conversations like those that mirror the sentiments of the article. The rawness of the 911 is slipping away.
And I don't expect anyone who has plunked down 90+K for a new 997.2 to speak about the wrong direction Porsche (MIGHT?) be taking.
I am not an expert on the history but I see and hear enough to believe that the article does have some merit. And the next carrera model will say allot as to where Porsche decides to place and market it's brand.
#30
It absolutely has higher limits...to the point where you'd have to be nuts or suicidal to actually hit those limits on the street. There will come a point where cars have such high limits that you'll need to go to the track to have any fun. Really the only aspects of the 997 that you can exploit to the limit are acceleration and braking, which other cars do just as well for much less money.
I completely disagree about other cars. BMWs are heavier but they are just as technically good as the earlier cars. Want to talk about getting better, how about the Ford Mustang GT. That car has stepped it up in a major way. And of course your 911 feels better than an M3...one is a modified family sedan, the other is a touring car chassis from the beginning.
I think what owners of older cars like is not the performance. Hell, most modern sports cars would embarrass a 993 in almost every way...including the 996 and 997...but the 993 lets you feel everything...you feel one with the car at any speed. Call it nostalgic BS, but thats why these cars are as popular as they are...and hell, aside from cheesy a/c, there is no reason you couldn't daily drive a 993.
I completely disagree about other cars. BMWs are heavier but they are just as technically good as the earlier cars. Want to talk about getting better, how about the Ford Mustang GT. That car has stepped it up in a major way. And of course your 911 feels better than an M3...one is a modified family sedan, the other is a touring car chassis from the beginning.
I think what owners of older cars like is not the performance. Hell, most modern sports cars would embarrass a 993 in almost every way...including the 996 and 997...but the 993 lets you feel everything...you feel one with the car at any speed. Call it nostalgic BS, but thats why these cars are as popular as they are...and hell, aside from cheesy a/c, there is no reason you couldn't daily drive a 993.
I agree that the other cars have gotten better too. But they seem to have gotten bigger and heavier. In 2004 when my 345HP 911 was the fastest street 911 (non GT/ TT), the AMG's, M5's etc. were faster. Now my 997.2S can keep up with the M5's or AMG's etc. straightline acceleration. Curves, handling etc. - no contest. All BMW's have put on quite a bit of weight and seem to be getting softer and bigger. Look at the latest 5 series. Porsche seems to be doing a better job keeping the weight reasonable. Apparently the next one wont be heavier - thats good. Other marques dont seem to do that.