Coochas.com being asked to shut down
10-05-2010, 08:23 PM
#46
10-05-2010, 08:26 PM
#47
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I can understand the use of the Porsche Logo Crest and how Dave manipulated it with his own logo but I can not understand the the brouchsures unless they fall under copywrite law.
One of my music shop customers used the Jack Daniles Whickey black and white shape for a t-shirt that they gave away during a sale 1 year. They received a cease and disist letter with in 1 month. They following year they used the Harley Davidson sheild logo with the stores name in place of the Harley Davidson name and with in a few days Harely sent them a letter. Logo shapes can be trade marked.
However for Porsche to go after an individual like Dave to remove the brochures from his site is a pretty low blow.
One of my music shop customers used the Jack Daniles Whickey black and white shape for a t-shirt that they gave away during a sale 1 year. They received a cease and disist letter with in 1 month. They following year they used the Harley Davidson sheild logo with the stores name in place of the Harley Davidson name and with in a few days Harely sent them a letter. Logo shapes can be trade marked.
However for Porsche to go after an individual like Dave to remove the brochures from his site is a pretty low blow.
10-05-2010, 10:29 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
THANK YOU all for your outpouring of support. It means a tremendous amount to me and gives me the strength to fight for my enthusiasm.
I just finished a long day of work and need to get some sleep. There are some great ideas in this thread. I think I am going to first try to reason with PCNA in a well composed letter detailing my background and my motives. It can't hurt to try.
I sincerely appreciate all of the support in this thread. Perhaps I will include the URL in my letter!
I just finished a long day of work and need to get some sleep. There are some great ideas in this thread. I think I am going to first try to reason with PCNA in a well composed letter detailing my background and my motives. It can't hurt to try.
I sincerely appreciate all of the support in this thread. Perhaps I will include the URL in my letter!
10-05-2010, 11:16 PM
#49
Three Wheelin'
Sorry to hear this. I was not even aware of the site til I saw this thread.
Maybe send them that picture of you in your short pants (you know the one) and tell them to bite me.
Maybe send them that picture of you in your short pants (you know the one) and tell them to bite me.
10-05-2010, 11:35 PM
#50
Race Director
Considering he is not benefiting financially I would agree. Where else would you find these historic gems? They should be thankful that someone goes to the time and expense to share these with other enthusiast. Is he doing something that they are also doing? NO!
What about PCA? They have any influence?
Maybe reach out to Manny Alban.
What about PCA? They have any influence?
Maybe reach out to Manny Alban.
10-06-2010, 12:25 AM
#51
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Porsche sent me a polite but demanding letter today stating that my Coochas logo is an infringement of trademark and more importantly that they want me to remove my vintage brochure collection from the website. I understand that my logo could upset them, although let's be serious, it's pretty funny!
Removing my brochure collection is very distressing to me. I have poured so much love and enthusiasm into those brochures and now Porsche is asking me not to share them. I've never asked for any donations with my site and everything has always been free. These old brochures are hard to find and are not available for purchase from Porsche. I understand their need to protect copyrights and trademarks but they clearly do not care about their enthusiasts. This has probably come with their success as a mass marketer now.
Removing my brochure collection is very distressing to me. I have poured so much love and enthusiasm into those brochures and now Porsche is asking me not to share them. I've never asked for any donations with my site and everything has always been free. These old brochures are hard to find and are not available for purchase from Porsche. I understand their need to protect copyrights and trademarks but they clearly do not care about their enthusiasts. This has probably come with their success as a mass marketer now.
Don't fight, don't argue. Just ask politely. Case law on IP has created the situation that triggers such letters and you won't win unless you find someone who hopes to change case law, not Porsche's mind, and funds a fight as an exemplar case. I doubt you will. This is straightforward: you are wrong and Porsche is obligated to write such a letter. It is not their idea, but a general obligation.
Now. Having said that, respond like a mensch and follow the rules of modern IP law. Just ask permission to use that material. Offer them a token fee if they need one, but I doubt they even need the traditional dollar. The important point is your adding the line "used by permission" on your website. That establishes that they have not ignored your use of their material, the logos and trademarks and images they must protect.
That's all the law requires. Porsche require people to have permission, which maintains continuity of their rights to the material. Since it is their material, one of their rights is to allow you to re-publish it. But if they fail to demand you ask permission first they are implying -- in the eyes of U.S. courts -- that they have waived their rights. Thus would they forfeit them.
Surely no one seriously believes that any modern company objects to free publicity of this favorable sort. If you ask permission, you almost certainly will have it granted. Just treat them as reasonable people and they are more likely to behave that way.
Nice site by the way.
Gary
Last edited by simsgw; 10-06-2010 at 12:27 AM. Reason: Typo
10-06-2010, 12:52 AM
#53
Nordschleife Master
Add my name to the list of supporters for your site. 
Provide a link to this thread and do not go quietly into the night!
Provide a link to this thread and do not go quietly into the night!
10-06-2010, 01:25 PM
#54
Coochas
We may not see eye to eye on all Porsche things but on this topic I support you 100%.... you're clearly a enthusiast and wish you the best to get this settled. I will sign on as a supporter... My car is modded though so they may count me as half a vote
Seriously though, best of luck.... you have a very informative site and put a lot into it... wish you the best and know you have supporters here....
Seriously though, best of luck.... you have a very informative site and put a lot into it... wish you the best and know you have supporters here....
10-06-2010, 04:11 PM
#55
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John (PHDX2) - they will never give permission. Never.
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10-06-2010, 06:12 PM
#57
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I haven't time to read the many responses and probably someone has said this already, but just in case they haven't -- and assuming you would like to keep your material on line -- let me offer some quick advice.
Don't fight, don't argue. Just ask politely. Case law on IP has created the situation that triggers such letters and you won't win unless you find someone who hopes to change case law, not Porsche's mind, and funds a fight as an exemplar case. I doubt you will. This is straightforward: you are wrong and Porsche is obligated to write such a letter. It is not their idea, but a general obligation.
Now. Having said that, respond like a mensch and follow the rules of modern IP law. Just ask permission to use that material. Offer them a token fee if they need one, but I doubt they even need the traditional dollar. The important point is your adding the line "used by permission" on your website. That establishes that they have not ignored your use of their material, the logos and trademarks and images they must protect.
That's all the law requires. Porsche require people to have permission, which maintains continuity of their rights to the material. Since it is their material, one of their rights is to allow you to re-publish it. But if they fail to demand you ask permission first they are implying -- in the eyes of U.S. courts -- that they have waived their rights. Thus would they forfeit them.
Surely no one seriously believes that any modern company objects to free publicity of this favorable sort. If you ask permission, you almost certainly will have it granted. Just treat them as reasonable people and they are more likely to behave that way.
Nice site by the way.
Gary
Don't fight, don't argue. Just ask politely. Case law on IP has created the situation that triggers such letters and you won't win unless you find someone who hopes to change case law, not Porsche's mind, and funds a fight as an exemplar case. I doubt you will. This is straightforward: you are wrong and Porsche is obligated to write such a letter. It is not their idea, but a general obligation.
Now. Having said that, respond like a mensch and follow the rules of modern IP law. Just ask permission to use that material. Offer them a token fee if they need one, but I doubt they even need the traditional dollar. The important point is your adding the line "used by permission" on your website. That establishes that they have not ignored your use of their material, the logos and trademarks and images they must protect.
That's all the law requires. Porsche require people to have permission, which maintains continuity of their rights to the material. Since it is their material, one of their rights is to allow you to re-publish it. But if they fail to demand you ask permission first they are implying -- in the eyes of U.S. courts -- that they have waived their rights. Thus would they forfeit them.
Surely no one seriously believes that any modern company objects to free publicity of this favorable sort. If you ask permission, you almost certainly will have it granted. Just treat them as reasonable people and they are more likely to behave that way.
Nice site by the way.
Gary
Completely agree. On the trandemarks, they have an obligation to police their marks if they want to retain them. So, I understand why they would object to you using and modifying the Porsche crest.
On the brochures, it's primarily a copyright question, and a license (permission) to use their copyrighted works is probably your only option. Out of curiosity, how old where the brochures?
In the US, for works published between 1922-1963, the initial copyright term was 28 years from the date of publication, unless the copyright was renewed during the 28th year, in which case the copyright was extended for an additional 67 year period. So, there is a possibility that Porsche's copyright on the older brochures has expired. For works published from 1964 and on, the copyright term is well beyond most of our lifetimes.
I would send your letter directly to PCNA's General Counsel - Joseph S. Folz in Atlanta.
10-06-2010, 06:16 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
We may not see eye to eye on all Porsche things but on this topic I support you 100%.... you're clearly a enthusiast and wish you the best to get this settled. I will sign on as a supporter... My car is modded though so they may count me as half a vote
Seriously though, best of luck.... you have a very informative site and put a lot into it... wish you the best and know you have supporters here....
Seriously though, best of luck.... you have a very informative site and put a lot into it... wish you the best and know you have supporters here....
Mick!Thanks man.
Completely agree. On the trandemarks, they have an obligation to police their marks if they want to retain them. So, I understand why they would object to you using and modifying the Porsche crest.
On the brochures, it's primarily a copyright question, and a license (permission) to use their copyrighted works is probably your only option. Out of curiosity, how old where the brochures?
In the US, for works published between 1922-1963, the initial copyright term was 28 years from the date of publication, unless the copyright was renewed during the 28th year, in which case the copyright was extended for an additional 67 year period. So, there is a possibility that Porsche's copyright on the older brochures has expired. For works published from 1964 and on, the copyright term is well beyond most of our lifetimes.
I would send your letter directly to PCNA's General Counsel - Joseph S. Folz in Atlanta.
On the brochures, it's primarily a copyright question, and a license (permission) to use their copyrighted works is probably your only option. Out of curiosity, how old where the brochures?
In the US, for works published between 1922-1963, the initial copyright term was 28 years from the date of publication, unless the copyright was renewed during the 28th year, in which case the copyright was extended for an additional 67 year period. So, there is a possibility that Porsche's copyright on the older brochures has expired. For works published from 1964 and on, the copyright term is well beyond most of our lifetimes.
I would send your letter directly to PCNA's General Counsel - Joseph S. Folz in Atlanta.
I am hoping that the letter I received is 'broadcasted' to many site owners. My site is not commercial in any way and I just have to hope that Porsche will see things my way.
10-07-2010, 11:47 AM
#59
I think super-imposing your URL over the Porsche PDF brochures doesn't help your case. The PDF document invariably gets saved and forwarded over time, and now more than one version is floating around - Porsche's original work and the one you modified with your URL super imposed on it.
10-07-2010, 02:23 PM
#60
Race Director
Dave, you are probably lucky that the Hello Kitty people are not coming after you as well!
But seriously, what we see as "cute" Porsche's lawyers see as a dilution of the brand. I PM'd you with the name of someone at the Stanford Fair Use project who might be able to give you some guidance. And if they figure out a solution I'm sure they would not turn down a tax deductable donation to the project.
But seriously, what we see as "cute" Porsche's lawyers see as a dilution of the brand. I PM'd you with the name of someone at the Stanford Fair Use project who might be able to give you some guidance. And if they figure out a solution I'm sure they would not turn down a tax deductable donation to the project.