Porsche to F1 ? or maybe vw
10-01-2010, 11:28 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
I readily admit when I am wrong. I hereby state that if the new 991 retains the same 'go-kart' dynamics the 997 has, in spite of its longer wheelbase, I will admit that I was wrong in my prediction that the new car will be less 'go-kart'. 
I am still waiting for the list of F1-inspired items introduced in F-road cars that others did not have.
I am still waiting for the list of F1-inspired items introduced in F-road cars that others did not have.
Read above, and do NOT change your own words... you said "Porsche/Audi" did NOT introduce in their road cars... and paddle shifters was introduced in Ferrari long before Porsche/Audi and it was trickled down from F1! and PLEASE... do NOT tell me Tiptronic was the same!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...l_transmission
The most famous application of a sequential transmission on road-cars would be their use in some Ferraris since the late-nineties, beginning with the F355 F1. Their system, the most current version of which is called "F1-Superfast," with shift times of 60 ms[1] is designed to serve as a link to their Formula One efforts....
....
Finally, Volkswagen Group (parent owner of Lamborghini) introduced a sequential transmission to the Lamborghini Gallardo (E gear), and then adding it to the Audi R8 (R tronic).
....
Finally, Volkswagen Group (parent owner of Lamborghini) introduced a sequential transmission to the Lamborghini Gallardo (E gear), and then adding it to the Audi R8 (R tronic).
However, in 1997, the Berlinetta was the first ever road car to be equipped with the innovative F1-style gearbox management system. Derived directly from Formula 1, where it made its debut in 1989 winning the Brazilian Grand Prix, the electro-hydraulic system was operated by paddles behind the steering wheel using the F355’s conventional 6-speed manual gearbox. The new transmission guaranteed lightning-quick gear changes, with the additional advantage that both the driver’s hands could stay on the wheel at all times.
Are you gonna admit you're wrong now!
10-01-2010, 11:39 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
LOL... I certainly hope 991 is as good!
Read above, and do NOT change your own words... you said "Porsche/Audi" did NOT introduce in their road cars... and paddle shifters was introduced in Ferrari long before Porsche/Audi and it was trickled down from F1! and PLEASE... do NOT tell me Tiptronic was the same!
Read above, and do NOT change your own words... you said "Porsche/Audi" did NOT introduce in their road cars... and paddle shifters was introduced in Ferrari long before Porsche/Audi and it was trickled down from F1! and PLEASE... do NOT tell me Tiptronic was the same!
FYI... the sequential F1-tranny you loud is not a very good transmission. Just ask Ferrari owners.
10-01-2010, 11:40 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
10-01-2010, 11:45 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
...maybe you're just mis-informed!
Tiptronic uses torque converter... it's JUST an Automatic transmission! Here's for your education:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiptronic
Tiptronic uses torque converter... it's JUST an Automatic transmission! Here's for your education:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiptronic
Although tiptronic transmissions allow the driver a certain measure of discrete control, the tiptronic design is implemented using a torque converter like other automatic transmissions
Last edited by alexb76; 10-02-2010 at 01:07 AM.
10-02-2010, 12:00 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
10-02-2010, 12:13 AM
#21
Nordschleife Master
We all know that from a shifting performance perspective the F1 is very fast, very efficient. But it is no more than an electro-hydraulically-actuated single clutch sequential, and a brutal one at that, with horrible reliability. Just ask any Ferrari owner.
If one wants to say that the the F1-tranny was the first road car implementation of a, Tiptronic-like, high-performance transmission, I agree with that.
10-02-2010, 01:08 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
Does a F1 gearbox have a torque converter?
Is a tiptronic transmission "electro-hydraulically-actuated"?
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrohydraulic_manual_transmission[COLOR="Red"
]Electrohydraulic manual transmission is a type of semi-automatic transmission system, which uses an automated clutch[/COLOR] unlike conventional manual transmissions where the driver operates the clutch. The clutch is controlled by electronic computers and hydraulics. To change gears, the driver selects the desired gear with the transmission shift lever, and the system automatically operates the clutch and throttle to match revs and engage the clutch again. Also, many such transmissions operate in sequential mode where the driver can only upshift or downshift by one gear at a time.
Depending on the implementation, some computer-controlled electrohydraulic manual transmissions will automatically shift gears at the right points (like an automatic transmission), while others require the driver to manually select the gear even when the engine is at the redline. Despite superficial similarity, clutchless manual transmission differ significantly in internal operation and driver's 'feel' from manumatics, the latter of which is an automatic transmission (automatics use a torque converter instead of clutch to manage the link between the transmission and the wheels) with ability to signal shifts manually.
Depending on the implementation, some computer-controlled electrohydraulic manual transmissions will automatically shift gears at the right points (like an automatic transmission), while others require the driver to manually select the gear even when the engine is at the redline. Despite superficial similarity, clutchless manual transmission differ significantly in internal operation and driver's 'feel' from manumatics, the latter of which is an automatic transmission (automatics use a torque converter instead of clutch to manage the link between the transmission and the wheels) with ability to signal shifts manually.
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission
A conventional manual transmission is frequently the base equipment in a car, with the option being an automated transmission such as a conventional automatic, manumatic, semi-automatic, or CVT. The ability to shift gears manually, often via paddle shifters, can also be found on certain automated transmissions (manumatics such as Tiptronic), semi-automatics (BMW SMG), and continuous variable transmissions (CVTs) (such as Lineartronic).
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission
Transmission types
Manual
* Sequential manual
* Non-synchronous
Automatic
* Manumatic
Semi-automatic
* Electrohydraulic
* Dual clutch
* Saxomat
* Zeroshift
Continuously variable
Bicycle gearing
* Derailleur gears
* Hub gears
Manual
* Sequential manual
* Non-synchronous
Automatic
* Manumatic
Semi-automatic
* Electrohydraulic
* Dual clutch
* Saxomat
* Zeroshift
Continuously variable
Bicycle gearing
* Derailleur gears
* Hub gears
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiptronic
Manumatic is a portmanteau word, combining the words manual and automatic, that applies to a class of automotive transmissions.
Manumatic most often refers to an automatic transmission, with some elements of manual transmission control (e.g. a gear can be manually selected instead of having the computer control all shifts). This type of transmission was introduced in the final decade of the 20th century. Different car manufacturers have been using a variety of labels for their manumatic transmissions, such as 'tiptronic', 'Geartronic', 'Touchshift', 'Sporttronic', and others.
Like a manumatic, many modern semi-automatic transmissions can operate in the same manner as a conventional type of automatic transmission by allowing the transmission's computer to automatically change gear, if for example the driver was redlining the engine. Despite superficial similarity, manumatics differ significantly in internal operation and driver's "feel" from semi-automatic transmissions. A manumatic, like a standard automatic transmission, uses a torque converter instead of clutch to manage the link between the engine and transmission - and therefore the roadwheels, though a manumatic has the ability to command shifts manually which is not found on a regular automatic.
Manumatic most often refers to an automatic transmission, with some elements of manual transmission control (e.g. a gear can be manually selected instead of having the computer control all shifts). This type of transmission was introduced in the final decade of the 20th century. Different car manufacturers have been using a variety of labels for their manumatic transmissions, such as 'tiptronic', 'Geartronic', 'Touchshift', 'Sporttronic', and others.
Like a manumatic, many modern semi-automatic transmissions can operate in the same manner as a conventional type of automatic transmission by allowing the transmission's computer to automatically change gear, if for example the driver was redlining the engine. Despite superficial similarity, manumatics differ significantly in internal operation and driver's "feel" from semi-automatic transmissions. A manumatic, like a standard automatic transmission, uses a torque converter instead of clutch to manage the link between the engine and transmission - and therefore the roadwheels, though a manumatic has the ability to command shifts manually which is not found on a regular automatic.
10-02-2010, 01:16 AM
#23
Nordschleife Master
I give up. Logic is lost in this forum. Read my posts and please do not misrepresent them.
10-02-2010, 01:21 AM
#24
Saying the tiptronic is a f1 derived tranny is a joke, but with that aside it will be nice to see porsche in f1 althought mclaren will always be my favorite team. In the past, honda has used more f1 tech that trickled down to consumer road cars.
10-02-2010, 01:27 AM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Where did I say that Tiptronic was F1-derived? Please humor me.
I said that the F1-tranny and the Tip have the same UI and that that UI was introduced by PAG many years before Ferrari did. That is what I said. And it is no big deal.
If you think F-cars are F1-derived so be it, but I do not think so. Only the Scuderia was tuned with inputs from Schumi, so I give you that, the Scud has F1 team influences.
I said that the F1-tranny and the Tip have the same UI and that that UI was introduced by PAG many years before Ferrari did. That is what I said. And it is no big deal.
If you think F-cars are F1-derived so be it, but I do not think so. Only the Scuderia was tuned with inputs from Schumi, so I give you that, the Scud has F1 team influences.
10-02-2010, 01:28 AM
#26
In any case I think it's pretty clear that the Le Mans series directly translates into road car gains much more so than F1.
I mean the R8 race car development pretty much directly turned into a great road car. The Porsche GT3 cars obviously benefit from all the real race testing they get (sadly our cars, not so much).
I mean the R8 race car development pretty much directly turned into a great road car. The Porsche GT3 cars obviously benefit from all the real race testing they get (sadly our cars, not so much).
10-02-2010, 01:29 AM
#27
Nordschleife Master
In any case I think it's pretty clear that the Le Mans series directly translates into road car gains much more so than F1.
I mean the R8 race car development pretty much directly turned into a great road car. The Porsche GT3 cars obviously benefit from all the real race testing they get (sadly our cars, not so much).
I mean the R8 race car development pretty much directly turned into a great road car. The Porsche GT3 cars obviously benefit from all the real race testing they get (sadly our cars, not so much).
10-02-2010, 02:50 AM
#29
Race Director
10-02-2010, 06:37 AM
#30
I really want to see Porsche back with a full works factory team at Le Mans where they belong. They've been gone too long, since winning in '98.
Porsche races now via customer programs, but it's not the same. ALMS isn't at the top tier of the world stage. F1 certainly is, but past Porsche attempts have been dismal, even their failed Indy attempt was a sad footnote. The TAG-Porsche McLaren championships of Lauda and Prost in the '80s were the only real success.
But rather than sit on the sidelines, Porsche needs to be back at the top tier of the world motor racing scene - either Endurance or F1. If paired with a top team, it would be nice to see them have a go at F1 again. They can't sit on their heritage forever, their last Le Mans win in '98 will soon be as ancient as their first win in '70.
Porsche races now via customer programs, but it's not the same. ALMS isn't at the top tier of the world stage. F1 certainly is, but past Porsche attempts have been dismal, even their failed Indy attempt was a sad footnote. The TAG-Porsche McLaren championships of Lauda and Prost in the '80s were the only real success.
But rather than sit on the sidelines, Porsche needs to be back at the top tier of the world motor racing scene - either Endurance or F1. If paired with a top team, it would be nice to see them have a go at F1 again. They can't sit on their heritage forever, their last Le Mans win in '98 will soon be as ancient as their first win in '70.