Jim 'n' SC

Got rear ended in my 07 Carrera first of December. Had $20K damage to the front and rear of the car. $6K of that was the mufflers and cats! No frame or motor damage.

What should I be asking for for "dimished value?"

The only good thing to come out of this whole thing is that I went with a Fabspeed muffler and sports cat system with Porsche X51 headers for about 1/2 the price of what the insurance company is paying for the stock system.

Chris C.

Do a search - there are some stats out here. Basically you can have several quotes done on your car from 3rd parties after disclosing the damage, and ask them to document the DV. IIRC it's on the order of 15% of the car's value on a P-car.

Chris

buckwheat987

macster's the man on this...PM him

Macster

Well, in spite of the high regard buckwheat987 has regarding my knowledge on this subject, I'm no expert on DV claims.

You'll have to research DV claims in your state.

The other insurance company -- I assume it was not your insurance compnay that footed the bill for the repairs? -- could arque the car has been repaired as good as humanly possible and there is no DV. Added: If you can point to something not right the insurance company could claim then the repair was not done properly and that is a matter between you and the body shop, that the body shop should make the something right.

Many insurance companies exclude DV claims by their insured. The argument is the car is repaired back to its pre-collision condition (though of course the quality of the repairs vary considerably) and thus there is no DV and thus no claim allowed. That some insurance companies appear to work against a body shop doing a good job just makes this a lie that is hard to swallow.

Percentages are bandied about. I think it depends upon the rules/regulations in effect on insurance companies in your state and fair claims and settlements regulations/rules that are in effect in your state.

At best insurance companies use these to guide their behavior. At worst they do just the opposite to avoid paying out any more money than they absolutley have to.

My focus has been to when one of my cars has been hit and deemed fixable is to work very hard to get the car fixed and returned to its pre-collision condition. I was lucky to stumble upon a body shop near me that the owner had much prior experience in the insurance business before he became a body shop owner and could tell me beforehand what the insurance company was going to do and what I could do to counter it.

He also worked very hard to properly fix my Boxster and I was much impressed with his efforts. It was interesting to see how the other driver's insurance company was pushing him to use non-OEM parts, used parts, reconditioned parts, and denying him authorization to for instance place the car on a Celette Bench just to be sure all hard points in their proper location. The car was not hit that hard (thank goodness) but Porsche requires some Celette bench time just to be sure. A proper repair starts with the basic requirement that all of the attachment points for everything that goes on the car be in their proper location to very close tolerances.

Most cars do not receive this treatment -- I was told -- cause the automakers use the manufacturing fixtures/jigs so long they wear out and a new door for a older car will not fit right regardlless.

But he tells me Porsche doors and other body panels are very exact and have the same size, shape, form and fit from the first to the last. This is why it is critical that the hard attachment points be properly located, or made to be properly located should a collision knock them out of position.

Anyhow, he knew ways to get the other insurance company to come around. For instance there are not that many reconditioned parts for these cars. And the few he found and ordered were when examined were deemed unsuitable for use. The reconditioned condition was the pits. The front bumper didn't fit and didn't line up properly. The adjuster was called out and shown the fit and even he had to agree. (Which gives you an idea of just how bad the fit and finish was and this was prepaint too). So off came the reconditioned part and on went a new one. And this was repeated for various other pieces that needed to be replaced (just a few: front/rear bumper covers, headlight, tailight).

Thankfully I have not yet had to file a DV claim.

My exposure to DV claims was that were my CS repaired (it wasn't it was declared a total loss) that in order to file a DV claim I would have to suffer a loss. To suffer a loss to set the value of ths loss I would have had to sell the car after its repair and from this price and what its value was before the accident I could then know my loss and thus put a dollar value on a DV claim.

The trouble was the other driver was under-insured. So if the repairs consumed the limits of the other driver's policy then I was faced with having to sue the driver and owner (which were not one and the same) or just chucking it all in and filing a claim with my own insurance company.

Now my insurance company does not allow DV claims by its insured. The policy specifically excludes DV claims.

Another problem is setting the pre-collision value of the car. Now in the case of the CS, since I had bought it just 25 days before the accident, this was not all that hard. In every case -- many pages of check off items -- the CS came out above excellent in paint, interior condition, tires, engine, everything. Thus the car's pre-collision condition was rated very very good (as it should have been being a frickin new car!) and it was assigned a high replacement value.

But an older car, one a few years old, it becomes -- I believe anyhow -- harder to come to a pre-collision condition and thus a pre-collision value.

But this is just my opinion based on my limited exposure to this area of car insurance.

You need to research what DV consists of in your state and from this know what is required and from this know perhaps what the effort is and what chances of success you will have. And of course what amount you might be able to collect.

Best of luck!

Sincerely,

Macster.

LvnTheDrm

Replies like Macster's are why I consume so much time perusing this Forum...I have to believe Rennlisters are among the most knowledgeable, giving contributors to any auto board. Thanks to you all!

russo

With the detailed and knowledgeable replies that Mac posts, its no wonder that he is considered proficient in these such cases.

BobbyB

Do your homework well - as others have said, different states and different insurance compaines all have thier own views of how they will handle a DV claim.

I was lucky, the at faults party's insurance company didn't fight against my DV claim. His insurance company repaired my car to the tune of about $15K (this was for an 02 BoxsterS) at the body shop of my choice. The complete left side of the car was damaged but not so bad as to total the vehicle. It never ran quite the same. After numerous times of returning the car to the shop to tweak this or that and notifiying the insurance company of the continued repair issues, I finally told the insurace company that I wanted to file a claim for DV as my car would never be worth what it was prior to the accident.

The insurance company and I settled on a third party company to appraise the car for it's current value. Basically they checked the repairs and from what I was told the closer the repair was to "as new" the less the DV claim. That company sent an estimate of the DV to the insurance company and from there I recieved a letter detailing what an 02 Box S in excellent condition was currently worth in early 08, and what my car with repairs to "as new" condition was worth. The difference between the two values was the amount that i was allowed for DV. I was told that the amount my car was worth, was what any dealer would give me for my car in it's current state. With that, the insurnace company offered me the difference for DV. As you might guess, the insurance company and I had totally different opinons of what the DV should be.

I then took my car back to the dealer where the repairs were done, Carmax and to one other dealer to get their trade in value(s) in writing. Not surprising not one dealer offered the value the apprasing company said my car was worth. I informed the insurance company that I couldn't get the value the appraiser said my car was worth, nothing close as my car had been in an accident and that the dealers didn't care that it was repaired to "as new condition". I was informed how the courts in my state viewed DV, and that they the insurance company was going the extra mile. However, the insurance company told me that the only way for them to determine the actual DV was to take the value I actually received when I sold the car and subtract it from the value of my model year car at that time. If I were going to sell the car within the next month, they would honor the appraised value of the car vs what I received, otherwise they would re-appraise the car's before accident value when ever I sold it.

For me, it was a no brainer, as the appraised value of my car exceeded the KBB retail value. The insurance company paid the DV claim, based upon what the dealer gave me for my car vs the appraised retail value. The only condition was that I had to submit to the insurance company the sales order showing how much the dealer paid for my car in trade and that I no longer owned the car. I received a check within two weeks.

Your results may differ. I learned to keep the lines of communications open as this was not much of a fight. Not all insurance companies follow this path. Good luck

jimjoe997

Jim, check this out: http://www.csiofnc.com/diminished_value.html
I realize he is in NC (my home state) but he may be able to help you anyway - or you may be able to find similar services in SC. I can't vouch for him (don't know him and haven't used his services) but I think I would check it out if I had an accident. BTW, I coincidentally work in Salisbury, so I was going to stop by his office to talk to him just in case I ever am unfortunate enough to need his services.
Jim

Jim 'n' SC

Thanks for all the helpful comments. Fortunately State Farm has been great to work with so far, so I feel armed with all your advise I will be able to work it out with them without to much hassle.

medtech

Famous last words...

They are always your BFF in the beginning. But they will turn on you, eventually.
At the start they will act like anything is possible, but once they fix your car and complete their minimum contractual/legal obligation, then the game changes.

Don't be surprised if they tell you DV doesn't exist, or they don't pay DV, or you have to sell the car first...blah, blah, blah

If State Farm is your insurer and DV is not in the contract, then guess what, it doesn't exist on that end. You don't have a contract w/ his insurer, and they have no reason to please you, their job is to reduce losses and protect their client. (If the company is ultimately willing to work with you, then run out and buy a lottery ticket, cause it's your lucky day).

I just finished a DV claim. Ultimately I had to sue the at fault individual and take whatever the judge gave me, but I did get some money.

I used a guy named JD Howard at www.ican2000.com . He is very helpful all the way thru the process and his report is impeccable. Well worth the money.

Here's what I would suggest:
1. Start the DV Report ASAP
2. Don't waste time waiting for answers from the Ins. co. If they give you ANY indication of stonewalling the issue, then proceed w/ the steps proceeding a lawsuit. (JD will draft letters for you as part of his service).
3. Don't be afraid to go to small claims.
4. When you are in small claims you will have a chance to negotiate w/ the guy's insurance rep for a settlement. Make a strong pitch for your case and then make them as offer that's less than what you're asking for. They will likely take it, and then you're done. Otherwise you take your chances in front of the judge. (I ended up in front of the judge. Everything seemed to be going fine, so I didn't really argue my case much. Then at the last second he pulls out a figure of $1500 when my conservative estimate was $6500. Doh!)
5. Once the court has decided the amount, the insurance company will pay very quickly.

Good luck!

Aaron

STLUCIEAPPRAISAL

Any thoughts regarding Allstate's letter to my customer?

Dear Claimant:

I am in receipt of your diminished value report from The St. Lucie Appraisal Company of Fort Pierce, Florida. Their report indicates that your vehicle has diminished in value by $6,666.66. This figure was based on the opinions of six different Toyota dealers and what these dealers have indicated they might offer as a trade-in value for a vehicle similar to yours that had been in an accident.

This document fails to establish that your vehicle lost value as a result of being in an accident. Car dealers have an institutional conflict of interest that hardly should make them the arbiter of whether a vehicle loses value if it is involved in an accident. It is in a car dealer’s interest to pay as little as possible for vehicles. Neither you nor the St. Lucie Appraisal Company of Florida have provided Allstate with any evidence that any seller of any vehicle that had been involved in an accident actually sold his or her vehicle for less than the price for which an otherwise-similar vehicle sold. The appraisal report refers to diminished value formulas and something called Rule 17-C, also used to compute diminished value, neither of which is used in California.

In the opinion of outside counsel with whom we have consulted, California law does not require liability insurers to pay both the cost of repairs and the alleged diminution of a vehicle’s value. Instead, in insurer may limit recovery to either the reasonable cost of repairs to the vehicle or the difference between its value immediately before and immediately after the accident, whichever is less. We therefore decline to make any additional payments for your diminished value claim.

If you are in possession of any additional information or legal authority that you feel would warrant a reconsideration of our opinion, please submit that information for my review.

California Department of Insurance regulations require that the following language appear in this letter: If you believe that this claim has been wrongfully denied or rejected, you may have the matter reviewed by the California Department of Insurance, 300 South Spring Street, Los Angeles, California, 90013, telephone number 800-927-4327.

Macster

You are in a difficult position. The insurance company has a point. Dealers are not the final word on vehicle value.

One person I talked to regarding DV told me to sell the car after the repairs and then use this to determine DV. The trouble is to know how much the same identical car sold at the same time without the stigma of accident upon it would have brought.

I could have sold the car, probably at something much less than it would have brought without the accident, then turned around and been denied any DV. The insurance company would have asked where is the example to show the car actually sold for less than it would have otherwise? The car's price was market driven, that any imagined DV was just me failing to recognize market forces at work. And so on.

DV is a real mess and more and more insurance companies I think are going to take a harder line at DV claims.

What to do in your case?

I do not know. All I can offer is this link:
http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0100-con...cfm#automobile

And specifically point you to section 2695.8.

However, read the entire document.

Then read the info at this link:

http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/Arti...insurance.aspx

There is this link:

http://www.diminishedvalue.com/dimin...california.php

There are more links one of which may be of some use, make a light bulb go off over your head. I used google to search using this search string "diminished value california" (without the quotes).

sandwedge

A dealer may have a conflict of interest when he buys a car but certainly not when he sells it. I had a DV claim some time ago and used a for sale ad on Ebay to back up my numbers. The dealer in question specifically said that the car was priced 10% below book value due to collision history which it was. Geico paid me about 80% of what I asked for.

STLUCIEAPPRAISAL

1)What if the owner doesn't want to sell the car?

2)If used car managers at dealerships, the ones who actually buy these cars, aren't the final word, who is?

Macster

# 1 is a problem. When I was faced with a possible DV claim I didn't want to sell either.

For #2 first as I like to point out when one is buying a car everything a car salesman tells you is intended to get you to buy the car as soon as possible and to pay as much for it as possible. When you swap roles, when you are talking to a used car manager/buyer about buying your car (either outright or as a trade in) there is a change.

Everything he tells you is intended to get you to sell the car as soon as possible and to accept as little as possible for the car.

You show up with a convertible, he'll swear the convertible market is down and everyone wants hard tops. Or vice versa. Show up with a red car and that's an unpopular color. Show up with any color and its an unpopular color. Options are all negative to the value of the car.

So show up with a car that has been in an accident and he'll use this, let your belief the car is worth less, to get you to accept less. As little as possible. That's his job. But when it comes time to sell, you can be sure he will not be as hard on the car and it will be priced accordingly.

I may be missing something as I've not had to go through with a DV claim but how to arrive at how much the car's value has suffered from the accident on its record is really not clear to me.

One possible way -- it still involves selling the car -- is to put the car out for sale at an auction at which other similar cars are being sold then note the difference in selling price. Or sell the car at an auction provided you have access to or can get access auction prices for similar cars sold in the past and note the difference in selling price.

One problem (at least one problem) with this is this provides provides you with a difference at the wholesale price level. As you I'm sure know a private sale usually involves more money. I'm not sure how to extrapolate the difference at the wholesale level to that of a private sale or the difference at the wholesale level to that of a retail sale, if the car was bought by a dealer to resell.

This is why I stress whenever someone comes here with a car that has been involved in an accident to focus on doing what one can to ensure the car is repaired as good as humanly possible.

Along with this document the extent of the car's damage -- pictures -- and document the car's repairs -- pictures -- and have the car inspected by another shop or by a tech at a dealer (I did both) and if anything is found amiss take the car back until the car is up to your standards and that of those that you had inspect the car.