At Law

Sharmat,

I agree the car will not likely meet the "total" threshold.

Just to clarify how an insurance company works with "totalling" a vehicle.

If the Ins Co decides to "total" a car. They will pay the owner/insured
xxx amount of dollars and the Ins Co takes title to the vehicle.
The owner typically receives fair market value for the vehicle.
At this point, the insured no longer owns the car, the Ins Co owns
it.
Therefore, the Ins Co will typically sell the car. It is at this
point that most, if not all states, require the title be branded
"Salvaged."

Now if someone buys and repairs this car, they can have the
title rebranded, typically "Previously Salvaged."

Tom

Fred2

I would have several late model salvage dealers look at the car and get a value that they would pay for the car as it sits.
Get an estimate as well as from the preferred Porsche repair place in the area.

Determine the real cost to repair the car + its value as it sits.
This equals the "Check to you".

Will this "Check to You" get you a new car, (or at least real close to one?)

crvtt

If you don't have any frame/unibody damage the value of the car will not be greatly effected. Accidents happen, lots of cars out on the road have previous paint work, it's not the end of the world and the value of the car doesn't magically drop to zero once you wreck a car. At auction a frame/unibody damage car does from $2-8k less depending on make/model/year etc. Assuming no frame/unibody damage, figure the value of the car is a $1-3k less than if no paint work. If the accident shows up on CarFax, it may take a slightly higher hit. Customers just don't like to see accidents on CarFax reports for obvious reasons. Only bad part about that is some cars that have been in minor accidents, with just bumpers replaced end up taking the same type of value loss as a car that was hit like yours.

Macster

Sorry to read about your car. Glad of course no one hurt.

Do not know what state you are in and what you can do depends upon the fair claims and settlement rules/regulations in your state and also the insurance rules and regulations and what your policy's fine prints says.

(I've dealt with 3 accidents in 2009 involving all 3 of my Porsches so I'm pretty current on this stuff.)

That looks to be a pretty severe impact.

Did airbags or seat belt tensioners fire? Passenger airbag destroys dash I think (did on my 08 CS). Dash is $2200.

Front bumper, fenders, front trunk lid all expensive and should be factory parts. In fact all parts replaced want to be factory. More on this below.

Likely there is paint damage to where the fenders and doors come together.

There is almost certainly tub/chassis damage. There will be serious/severe suspension, steering damage. My estimate is all front suspension, steering, and any drivetrain (if AWD) hardware will have to be replaced. The force of impact is transmitted through all these pieces and they are forever compromised. Replacement is the only safe way of knowing they are well safe.

My guess is the damage will quickly pass the $20K estimate.

(I hit a mule deer with my 03 Turbo -- no chassis/tub damage thankfully --- and a new front bumper, front trunk lid, passenger fender, headlight (and assoc. hardware), wheel, tire, vapor recover system hardware, A/C condensor, radiator, associated hardware, wheel liners, plastic body underpanels, and paint work, cost over $25K. Oh and 60 days of time and a rental car at $40/day. Plus I'm suing my insurance company for damages because it clearly acted in bad faith in its dealings with me regarding the repair of this car, so the total cost will be higher. My 25 day old 08 CS hit and adjusters stopped counting at $40K in damaged. Car totaled.)

Ideally I think you want the car totaled.

You do not have much direct say in this matter.

But you have some say and you have to speak up loud and clear. What you can do is push to have the car taken to a qualified repair shop that is recognized by your dealer and preferrably other high end car brand dealers as well as qualified to work on these car, to repair them, to put the car back to its *pre-collision condition". Remember this phrase.

In CA we are free to take car to any shop we want. If you can, my advice is to seek out the best shop and avoid (at least try to avoid) any shop that has any business partnership with your insurance company. I speak from direct experience and from having spoken with more body shop owners in this last year than I can count, in all cases (unfortunately) these shops are pressured to perform a substandard repair. The insurance company uses its business relationship and the threat of its cancellation to bring pressure to bear to force body shops to use aftermarket, reconditioned, salvaged parts. Also, paint damage will be "overlooked" and other shortcuts taken to cut costs.

A good repair is not a factor in the insurance company's thinking. Cost containment is the only thing that matters. (And do not think that threatening to lose you as a customer worries the company. The nice people that take your money are not the people you deal with when it comes to a claim.)

For its Porsche Approved Collision Center requirements Porsche lists the many and various steps a Porsche must go through to be put back right.

I can't type this in but if you PM me I'll email you a PDF file of the document I'm speaking of so you have it to refer to and you should have it and have it memorized.

The car must be torn down, its running gear removed and the car placed on a special alignment bench. There are 2 recognized by Porsche: Celette (used at the factory when these cars are made/assembled) and one other the name escapes me.

Upon this bench special jigs/fixtures (rented from Celette) are used to note any out of position hard attachment points. These include not only suspension, steering, drivetrain attachment points but attachment points for fenders, doors hinges, practically everything. (Do a google search on Celette bench and find the company's web site and follow the links and you'll come upon the detailed dimensions that are used to ensure the car's tub/chassis are in proper shape. Extensive.)

If any attachment points found out of position and from the looks of the car they will be, the car's chassis/tub is pulled and straightened and for instance fender metal shelf where the fender bolts will be straightened to the new fender is at the proper height and aligns as it must with the bumper, front trunk lid, the head light fits properly and can be properly aligned with the adjustment range provided.

After the chassis/tub is straightened the car is fitted with new running gear and taken to a Porsche dealer where the alignment is checked. If the tech has to use to much alignment adjustment the car is not straight enough and it must go back on the bench.

As for factory parts, in order for the warranty of the car to remain in effect and for there to be any warranty on the parts used to repair the car and on the labor, Porsche requires factory parts be used, they be bought through PCNA, the parts purchased at a Porsche dealer parts department and installed by a qualifed Porsche tech.

My local Porsche dealer charges $150/hour and does not offer discounts body shops. Parts are not discounted either.

Next, the body shop will almost certainly seek to keep the mechanical work in house, to save money and of course increase its profits.

You must push the adjustor to price in the cost of factory parts, and labor to install the mechanicals by a Porsche tech. This is the only way the car can be put back into its pre-collision condition.

If not done, then the car may not ever run, work right. Additionally it will not have any new car warranty. While the body shop -- in CA anyhow -- must gaurantee its work this does you no good if you are away from home with the car and the cooling system leaks. You take the car to a dealer for attention and the dealer informs you the system is leaking but it is not covered by the car's warranty. While the body shop could possibly fix this for you the car is not at the body shop but a distance away.

I could go on. Getting a Porsche properly fixed after a severe impact a lot of work and you have to work very hard to protect your interests, which is getting the car put back into its pre-collision condition or getting a good settlement should the car prove to be beyond repair. Most likely, this is contrary to what your insurance company is seeking.

Sincerely,

Macster.

alexb76

That sucks man, sorry! I once had a similar experience with a 1 month old Audi. I NEVER forget the feeling after I was hit. Car wasn't even washed after I bought it new! You will get over it though, after it's done right.

I don't believe they would total it. However, what you need to do is to get another estimate from THE Porsche body shop, using ALL OEM PARTS! The estimate may be more than $20K. I find the esitmate a bit low for the damages in the pic. The new estimate may get it closer to total, but still I doubt it.

If that option is not available to you, then make sure you take it to the BEST Porsche body shop you can find, make sure all OEM parts are used, and I BET you'd be happy with the end result. The way you feel now will go away after it's done right.

Good luck!

Macster

It depends. My 08 CS was declared a total loss. The other driver's insurance company obtained an estimate of the car's salvage value (as I did, several in fact from different places).

The insurance company gave me a check which was the difference between a replacement vehicle minus the car's salvage value. I also arrived at my estimate of the cost to replace the car and had this when the other driver's insurance company tried to low ball me on this and point me to cars way too far away for me to properly consider. It helped that I had a copy of the CA fair claims and settlements rules and regs and insurance rules/regs handy to refer to and point out the error of its ways to the other driver's insurance company.

I retained rights to the vehicle, salvage rights. The insurance company issued me a salvage certificate which I used to get a salvage title from the DMV. By state law the insurance company had to provide me with the name/address/phone number of the business that offered to buy the car at the salvage price. This price guaranteed to me by law. No faking a big salvage value to lower its check amount to me then me not being able to sell the car for the amount used to bring down the settlement amount.

I then sold the car -- all properly documented as to what happened, the extent of the damages, with a salvage title -- for more than the insurance company's estimate of the car's salvage value.

With bodily injury settlement ( a very sore throat the result of breathing in airbag fumes/dust) and loss of use of car money I came out ok, a bit ahead though not enough to make up for having my brand new CS destroyed by a careless driver of the other car with me and a passenger in CS at the time it was destroyed.

Sincerely,

Macster.

MUSSBERGER

Insist that every part broken, bent, twisted or whatever down to the frame be replaced. Sure you can straighten it but once it's been bent and bent back into shape there are safety issues from metal fatigue that could have fatal consequences should the car be involved in another incident.

If they won't agree get a lawyer.

mauijim

Macster,
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience - you have turned your bad year to our benefit. Excellent, hands-on advice, as always. Best of luck this year - you deserve it.

utkinpol

Hi, glad you are OK. It is just a car. Most important thing is that your are alive in one piece, all the rest is just some PITA. Sh#t happens.
Others already chimed about insurance and repairs. You`ll get over it.

What tires you had on?

brendo

+1

your posts should be a sticky

Paul S.

I agree with point #3--if you are planning on selling the car anyway, do so as soon as you get the body damage repaired and cut your losses. BTW, I had a much more involved collision on my 01 Turbo when it was 8 months old--no frame damage but everything forward of the windshield was replaced. Total repair bill was around $25,000.

The good news was, car looked perfect when done, and since it was a lease, the diminished value was not my problem. Drove the car happily for three more years before turning it in. Porsche Financial took a big hit on that one, I assure you, to the tune of about $20K.

camhabib

I want to thank everyone for the help. I really am glad that no one was hurt (including the passenger in the rear seat - don't know how that happened). It was somewhat of a miracle I didn't hit anyone else or go over the barrier on the side of the road (I was on a bridge).

In any case, since it's most likely going to be a repair, I'm attempting to locate a good body shop and will go from there. I contacted my adjuster requesting a "diminished value" claim and will possibly contact a lawyer if need be to advice me of my rights. I may see what kind of hit I'd take resale wise before deciding on whether to keep or sell it. Thanks again.

tpenta

Glad you are Ok and sorry to hear about the accident.

This is the second accident on this forum in 3 weeks and both times I've been surprised at how well the 911 crumples. Hitting something at 70mph could cause a lot of damage and human injury.

These car seem really solid!

Stay positive!

-T

Macster

You should push your adjuster to estimate the repairs properly/accurately to allow the car to be properly repaired. If he senses you are seeking a DV he could cut corners on the estimate and give you a token DV and the insurance company still comes out way ahead. You end up worse off than you would have been had you pushed harder and had the car fixed right from the start.

If the insurance company insists the car will be repaired you must ensure this entails putting the car back to its pre-collision condition as much as is humanly possible. This is doable but depending upon the damage not cheap. It does not involve using cut-rate reconditioned parts and look-alikes for the mechanical hardware. Also, part of the car's considerable value before the accident is represented by the car's very nice new car warranty.

Any repairs must be done in such a way to ensure this warranty remains in effect for the full 4 years and 50K miles. You should have info in your hands that covers what is required to ensure the car's new car warranty remains in effect after the repairs are completed.

Remember: You paid Porsche-sized insurance premiums to insure your car. The insurance company can't cheap out and claim the repair cost is too high and seek to have your Porsche repaired like some 5 year old Ford Focus.

If the insurance company attempts to do this this is the insurance company acting in bad faith.

Diminshed value claim against your own insurance company tough. In some areas of the country now all insurance companies write this exclusion into their policyies.

My understanding -- and I've not filed a DV claim but looked into that possibility had my CS been repaired instead of totaled -- is that in order to set a DV value prior to filing a claim the car would have to be fixed then sold and the selling price compared to what the car would have brought otherwise and this difference of course represents DV. However, there was no guarantee a DV claim would have been successful, and if not I would have been out a car and a lot of money.

If the car is repaired, if you are unable to legally push the car into being totaled then you want to seek the best repair possible so there is no DV.

Regardless, and I hate to say this but there will be cause cars involved in serious accidents (tub/chassis damage and the fact one or more airbags deployed is a serious accident) have a stigma attached to them that is hard to overcome.

Basically since there are so many cars to chose from and almost all do not have any serious accident damage the advise is to simply avoid these cars.

Thus buyers are scarce for these cars once the car's background is known. And have to note this in the ad text. (There are ways to word this so it doesn't sound/read too bad)

And if you find a buyer, or one seeks you out, he's going to use the car's collision history to really drive the price down.

While some, maybe many (at least high end cars) are repaired properly, so many other cars are not and this sets the mindset for many car buyers when considering (if they even consider at all) repaired cars.

One of the things you must try to do, if the car is repaired, is to take many pics of the process. You want to show the extent of the damage, after the car's been torn down, show it on the Celette bench, show the new parts before painting, after painting, the new mechanical hardware, everything.

This will show a prospective buyer what he can't see with the car in front of him fully repaired and could go a long way to calm his fears of the car.

IOWs, you want to be the prospective buyer's eyes as if it were his car being repaired.

You have a harder selling job cause you have to divulge the car's collision history. You not only have to sell the buyer a used car but a used car that has been in an accident.

But worry about that when the time comes. You want to push very hard to get the car properly repaired. This is your primary concern at this time.

Sincerely,

Macster.

DJ23

Hi Cam,
I'm curious as to what type of tires you were driving with? Tough to handle the P-car even when hydroplaning. As far as the accident, hang in there. Number one you're safe. If you demand OEM parts only, then you car will look like brand new when all is complete. But like others have said, make sure that the frame isn't damaged. If it is you need to work with your insurance company to see if you can get a total. Otherwise this will follow the car on carfax the rest of its ownership. As far as diminished value, from what I've been told, it depends on what type of insurance policy you have and in what state you reside in. Good luck with the repairs, and make sure you watch everything carefully, and I mean everything.

Jay