Car and Driver Depressing News
12-29-2009, 04:01 PM
#31
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Leave that to the new boss, Ferdinand P, as he might take umbrage with this. Except what'll end up happening is he'll offer more for lots more money.
12-29-2009, 04:13 PM
#32
I have been fortunate to own severeal different cars: Aston Martin, Corvette Z06, NSX, Porsche, etc, etc. I have belonged to most of the clubs as well. I always met very likeable people in each club and found aspects in each car to admire. After owning several marques, I personally love Porsche 911's in the way they drive, handle, look, and feel. I have reached a point that I don't really care what a car does in a magazine comparison test. It is more important to me what I can do with the car on a track and how much I enjoy driving it. I use to let these magazine tests bother me and I felt I had to defend my poor car that was a few tenths slower. These days, I drive what feels right to me and could care less what others think. All cars mentioned are great in their own respect and the owners are often nice as well. Enjoy what you have and don't worry about a singled out magazine test. I am just a car fanatic who loves about anything with a motor and at least two wheels, my personal preference after trying several cars happens to be the 911. Not because it is better or worse than others. Don't let a magazine article take away your enjoyment.
12-29-2009, 04:19 PM
#33
Still plays with cars.
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Let's stop with the stereotypes please!!! I've owned four Corvettes in my lifetime and now own a 993 and a 997. I don't fit either stereotype and neither, believe you me, does the wife.
Even though I didn't see the Car and Driver article I have to applaud Excellence for what was a very well written article and a thorough test of each car's abilities. The Corvette beat the GT2 where it counts and could obviously do it all day long. The fact that Excellence had the ***** to publish this says a lot about their journalistic integrity and courage.
The Corvette really is a fantastic car- it's very good looking (at least IMO) and offers a shocking amount of performance for the money. In turn you get a lousy interior, some cheesy GM parts, throughly terrible GM service and the social stigma of a well to do plumber. But the money you save can buy a round the world vacation, a few years worth of DEs, a first class F1 event and a nice stereo.
Depends on what you want.
The good thing is Porsche might say to itself- we're getting our clocks cleaned and need to offer more for the money- perhaps zere is a rezone our sales are in Xe gutter. Besides, when the Corvette beats a GT2 and a Cadillac has a Panama for lunch at less than half the price you have to applaud good 'IL American ingenuity.
Even though I didn't see the Car and Driver article I have to applaud Excellence for what was a very well written article and a thorough test of each car's abilities. The Corvette beat the GT2 where it counts and could obviously do it all day long. The fact that Excellence had the ***** to publish this says a lot about their journalistic integrity and courage.
The Corvette really is a fantastic car- it's very good looking (at least IMO) and offers a shocking amount of performance for the money. In turn you get a lousy interior, some cheesy GM parts, throughly terrible GM service and the social stigma of a well to do plumber. But the money you save can buy a round the world vacation, a few years worth of DEs, a first class F1 event and a nice stereo.
Depends on what you want.
The good thing is Porsche might say to itself- we're getting our clocks cleaned and need to offer more for the money- perhaps zere is a rezone our sales are in Xe gutter. Besides, when the Corvette beats a GT2 and a Cadillac has a Panama for lunch at less than half the price you have to applaud good 'IL American ingenuity.
I have nothing against the 'vette, I like the way a Porsche looks, feels and handles. It cost more, OK. A Rolex costs more than a Timex which is a far better bang for the buck too. That does not stop Rolex, Patek etc. from being as desirable as they are.
Best,
12-29-2009, 05:03 PM
#34
Let's stop with the stereotypes please!!! I've owned four Corvettes in my lifetime and now own a 993 and a 997. I don't fit either stereotype and neither, believe you me, does the wife.
Even though I didn't see the Car and Driver article I have to applaud Excellence for what was a very well written article and a thorough test of each car's abilities. The Corvette beat the GT2 where it counts and could obviously do it all day long. The fact that Excellence had the ***** to publish this says a lot about their journalistic integrity and courage.
The Corvette really is a fantastic car- it's very good looking (at least IMO) and offers a shocking amount of performance for the money. In turn you get a lousy interior, some cheesy GM parts, throughly terrible GM service and the social stigma of a well to do plumber. But the money you save can buy a round the world vacation, a few years worth of DEs, a first class F1 event and a nice stereo.
Depends on what you want.
The good thing is Porsche might say to itself- we're getting our clocks cleaned and need to offer more for the money- perhaps zere is a rezon our sales are in ze gutter. Besides, when the Corvette beats a GT2 and a Cadillac has a Panamera for lunch at less than half the price you have to applaud good 'ol American ingenuity.
Even though I didn't see the Car and Driver article I have to applaud Excellence for what was a very well written article and a thorough test of each car's abilities. The Corvette beat the GT2 where it counts and could obviously do it all day long. The fact that Excellence had the ***** to publish this says a lot about their journalistic integrity and courage.
The Corvette really is a fantastic car- it's very good looking (at least IMO) and offers a shocking amount of performance for the money. In turn you get a lousy interior, some cheesy GM parts, throughly terrible GM service and the social stigma of a well to do plumber. But the money you save can buy a round the world vacation, a few years worth of DEs, a first class F1 event and a nice stereo.
Depends on what you want.
The good thing is Porsche might say to itself- we're getting our clocks cleaned and need to offer more for the money- perhaps zere is a rezon our sales are in ze gutter. Besides, when the Corvette beats a GT2 and a Cadillac has a Panamera for lunch at less than half the price you have to applaud good 'ol American ingenuity.
Back to the Car & Driver article, I wouldn't give too much thought to their lap times more than in broad terms, i.e., the cayman, 911 S and M3 are similar in lap times. Automovil, a car magazine from Spain, does something very interesting in their tests: they measure the lap times from 2 of their tester (journalist with track experience) as well as 1 time from a reader. The gap is easily 3-5 seconds in a lap of 1.10-1.20 between the pros and the user. They did a test comparing a base 997.2 PDK against the Cayman S PDK...lap times pretty much equal, with the 997 being slightly faster, but the user was faster in the Cayman, since it's easier to drive for the unexperienced.
12-29-2009, 05:14 PM
#35
Bob I thought the Corvette beat the GT2's overall lap time by about .4 of a second but I read it quickly and will have to relook. This said I agree with your analogy- the 911 is the car for me (I can't afford the 250 GT Berlinetta Lusso of my dreams and it would have to sit next to the Porsche's- and the Ruf- anyway).
BTW every Corvette I ever owned leaked when it rained. Every one.
BTW every Corvette I ever owned leaked when it rained. Every one.
12-29-2009, 07:16 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
I would never make a generalization about Corvette drivers 
.
However, I will make a generalization about the women who
like Corvette owners:
Porsche Women: Polished, well spoken, well dressed, excellent backgrounds.
Corvette Women: Party girls, tramp stamps, died blond hair, tight
jeans, excessive drinking, love guys with pick up trucks,
have sketchy backgrounds, lots of makeup, think guys
with 18" arms are sexy.
. However, I will make a generalization about the women who
like Corvette owners:
Porsche Women: Polished, well spoken, well dressed, excellent backgrounds.
Corvette Women: Party girls, tramp stamps, died blond hair, tight
jeans, excessive drinking, love guys with pick up trucks,
have sketchy backgrounds, lots of makeup, think guys
with 18" arms are sexy.
12-29-2009, 07:18 PM
#37
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Just my singular, biased and controversial opinion: The only Corvettes that ever held a candle to the beauty of a Porsche were the 1962-67. I also wouldn't buy an automatic Porsche even if PDK was twice as quick around a track as a standard shift. I like paddles in a canoe, not so much in a car
12-29-2009, 07:27 PM
#38
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I am on my 2nd Porsche, an 09 C2S Cab 6 speed. After 1600 miles I can say that I am quite happy with the car. I hope, as time goes by, the Pcar will be as reliable as any or all of my 9 previous Corvettes (model years 1992 to 2008).
I drove the **** out of them and they wre the most reliable cars that I have ever owned, including 2 Ferraris. I HATE stereotypes!
I drove the **** out of them and they wre the most reliable cars that I have ever owned, including 2 Ferraris. I HATE stereotypes!
12-29-2009, 07:32 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I agree that a lot depends on the driver during the test and that the C2S in capable hands, say Walter Rohrl, would smoke the Cayman. C&D also consistently fawns over the M3, "just love those rear seats and trunk". Good points made by fer2367. I think the article is somewhat suspect, but all things considered those vettes, even the grand sport are impressive.
I had 3 Vettes over the years when I was poorer, oops, I mean younger. 1 LT-1 and 2 C5 Z06's. The Z06's were impressive cars, cheap interior aside. The new Vettes are at a even more impressive level of performance. I love cars period, and I'll state that anyone that disses the Vettes on the track or their overall performance is either a fool or not a real enthusiast. They are incredibly fast cars. Just not my cup of tea.
I had 3 Vettes over the years when I was poorer, oops, I mean younger. 1 LT-1 and 2 C5 Z06's. The Z06's were impressive cars, cheap interior aside. The new Vettes are at a even more impressive level of performance. I love cars period, and I'll state that anyone that disses the Vettes on the track or their overall performance is either a fool or not a real enthusiast. They are incredibly fast cars. Just not my cup of tea.
12-29-2009, 08:12 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
I had 3 Vettes over the years when I was poorer, oops, I mean younger. 1 LT-1 and 2 C5 Z06's. The Z06's were impressive cars, cheap interior aside. The new Vettes are at a even more impressive level of performance. I love cars period, and I'll state that anyone that disses the Vettes on the track or their overall performance is either a fool or not a real enthusiast. They are incredibly fast cars. Just not my cup of tea.
But as we look into compromises one way or another i would say same slogan 'there is no substitute' stays with 911 platform forever. I can enjoy it, can pick up my kid from school, drive in regular traffic, car is robust, responsive and capable and unbelievable fun to drive. It is just much more versatile than Z06 for everyday use and still in ultimate sport car category.
I use my 911 as summer daily driver and cannot think of Z06 in this role. It would not work.
12-29-2009, 08:37 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
I have had two S2000's and two NSX's and now onto my first 911.
I bought my 911 as its plenty fast for daily driving duties and I'd never go by what a magazine says to base any purchase on. Why don't car magazines tell it like life really is? What do I mean by that?
Eg.
1. What is the car like in a panic braking mode when the dumbass in front brakes too hard or last minute wants to turn into McDonalds?
2. What is the car like while driving to work on the morning and evening commute? Is the radio and center console in a great position?
3. Does the car have cupholders and an effective phone/sunglass holder?
4. Does the car nip in and out of traffic better than its competiton?
Instead of giving us track crap and braking performance numbers give us real world scenarios. I'm getting sick of all this "Ring" and "Top Gear" track crap as it just doesn't pertain to 90% of us. Yes, its entertaining but come on give us some real knowledge such as how the vehicle is to live with.
I bought my 911 as its plenty fast for daily driving duties and I'd never go by what a magazine says to base any purchase on. Why don't car magazines tell it like life really is? What do I mean by that?
Eg.
1. What is the car like in a panic braking mode when the dumbass in front brakes too hard or last minute wants to turn into McDonalds?
2. What is the car like while driving to work on the morning and evening commute? Is the radio and center console in a great position?
3. Does the car have cupholders and an effective phone/sunglass holder?
4. Does the car nip in and out of traffic better than its competiton?
Instead of giving us track crap and braking performance numbers give us real world scenarios. I'm getting sick of all this "Ring" and "Top Gear" track crap as it just doesn't pertain to 90% of us. Yes, its entertaining but come on give us some real knowledge such as how the vehicle is to live with.
12-29-2009, 09:46 PM
#42
I have had two S2000's and two NSX's and now onto my first 911.
I bought my 911 as its plenty fast for daily driving duties and I'd never go by what a magazine says to base any purchase on. Why don't car magazines tell it like life really is? What do I mean by that?
Eg.
1. What is the car like in a panic braking mode when the dumbass in front brakes too hard or last minute wants to turn into McDonalds?
2. What is the car like while driving to work on the morning and evening commute? Is the radio and center console in a great position?
3. Does the car have cupholders and an effective phone/sunglass holder?
4. Does the car nip in and out of traffic better than its competiton?
Instead of giving us track crap and braking performance numbers give us real world scenarios. I'm getting sick of all this "Ring" and "Top Gear" track crap as it just doesn't pertain to 90% of us. Yes, its entertaining but come on give us some real knowledge such as how the vehicle is to live with.
I bought my 911 as its plenty fast for daily driving duties and I'd never go by what a magazine says to base any purchase on. Why don't car magazines tell it like life really is? What do I mean by that?
Eg.
1. What is the car like in a panic braking mode when the dumbass in front brakes too hard or last minute wants to turn into McDonalds?
2. What is the car like while driving to work on the morning and evening commute? Is the radio and center console in a great position?
3. Does the car have cupholders and an effective phone/sunglass holder?
4. Does the car nip in and out of traffic better than its competiton?
Instead of giving us track crap and braking performance numbers give us real world scenarios. I'm getting sick of all this "Ring" and "Top Gear" track crap as it just doesn't pertain to 90% of us. Yes, its entertaining but come on give us some real knowledge such as how the vehicle is to live with.
And more:
1. Night driving in a 997.2 is incredible. Cockpit is perfectly lighted. All the buttons are lighted. Dynamic headlights are fantastic.
2. Front trunk is great for groceries. Perfect, no sliding around fit.
3. Those with Sport Chrono have two cars in one, ride/handling/throttle response.
4. PCM 3.0: Really good iPhone/iPod integration. Great touchscreen NAV.
5. Awesome snow cars!
12-29-2009, 11:27 PM
#43
Track Day
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IMHO if you buy any sports car "by the numbers" you are deluding yourself. Most all of us simply cannot drive to the capability of the car anyway so why not buy what you like to drive?
That being said the Corvette bashing borders on being snobbish and is unbecoming at the least. I have both a 2009 S Coupe (fabulous car) and a 2008 Z06 Corvette with the upgraded interior. I feel that the cars are purposed differently, at least for me, and I could care less what the magazine numbers say. They are both fine cars in their own rights and there are things that I like and dislike about both. I'm blessed to be able to choose which I want to drive at any given time.
However, those of you choose to trash the Vette should at least do an actual side by side comparison. Yes, my Porsche is nicer than my Vette in terms of interior finish but not by as large a margin as used to be the case, particularly when you look at the upgraded Vette interior. I'd like to say the exterior fit of the Porsche is better than my Vette but I really can't. The Porsche paint is some better than my Z06 but still has 'orange peel', which is really pretty bad on a car of this price.
I love my Porsche but I agree with the others who said that Porsche needs to wake up at some point and realize that they need to give more value for the dollar - particularly in an economy such as we now have.
If you judge a person by the car they drive you will miss out on a bunch of nice folks!!!
That being said the Corvette bashing borders on being snobbish and is unbecoming at the least. I have both a 2009 S Coupe (fabulous car) and a 2008 Z06 Corvette with the upgraded interior. I feel that the cars are purposed differently, at least for me, and I could care less what the magazine numbers say. They are both fine cars in their own rights and there are things that I like and dislike about both. I'm blessed to be able to choose which I want to drive at any given time.
However, those of you choose to trash the Vette should at least do an actual side by side comparison. Yes, my Porsche is nicer than my Vette in terms of interior finish but not by as large a margin as used to be the case, particularly when you look at the upgraded Vette interior. I'd like to say the exterior fit of the Porsche is better than my Vette but I really can't. The Porsche paint is some better than my Z06 but still has 'orange peel', which is really pretty bad on a car of this price.
I love my Porsche but I agree with the others who said that Porsche needs to wake up at some point and realize that they need to give more value for the dollar - particularly in an economy such as we now have.
If you judge a person by the car they drive you will miss out on a bunch of nice folks!!!
12-30-2009, 09:34 AM
#44
Race Director
IMHO if you buy any sports car "by the numbers" you are deluding yourself. Most all of us simply cannot drive to the capability of the car anyway so why not buy what you like to drive?
That being said the Corvette bashing borders on being snobbish and is unbecoming at the least. I have both a 2009 S Coupe (fabulous car) and a 2008 Z06 Corvette with the upgraded interior. I feel that the cars are purposed differently, at least for me, and I could care less what the magazine numbers say. They are both fine cars in their own rights and there are things that I like and dislike about both. I'm blessed to be able to choose which I want to drive at any given time.
However, those of you choose to trash the Vette should at least do an actual side by side comparison. Yes, my Porsche is nicer than my Vette in terms of interior finish but not by as large a margin as used to be the case, particularly when you look at the upgraded Vette interior. I'd like to say the exterior fit of the Porsche is better than my Vette but I really can't. The Porsche paint is some better than my Z06 but still has 'orange peel', which is really pretty bad on a car of this price.
I love my Porsche but I agree with the others who said that Porsche needs to wake up at some point and realize that they need to give more value for the dollar - particularly in an economy such as we now have.
If you judge a person by the car they drive you will miss out on a bunch of nice folks!!!
That being said the Corvette bashing borders on being snobbish and is unbecoming at the least. I have both a 2009 S Coupe (fabulous car) and a 2008 Z06 Corvette with the upgraded interior. I feel that the cars are purposed differently, at least for me, and I could care less what the magazine numbers say. They are both fine cars in their own rights and there are things that I like and dislike about both. I'm blessed to be able to choose which I want to drive at any given time.
However, those of you choose to trash the Vette should at least do an actual side by side comparison. Yes, my Porsche is nicer than my Vette in terms of interior finish but not by as large a margin as used to be the case, particularly when you look at the upgraded Vette interior. I'd like to say the exterior fit of the Porsche is better than my Vette but I really can't. The Porsche paint is some better than my Z06 but still has 'orange peel', which is really pretty bad on a car of this price.
I love my Porsche but I agree with the others who said that Porsche needs to wake up at some point and realize that they need to give more value for the dollar - particularly in an economy such as we now have.
If you judge a person by the car they drive you will miss out on a bunch of nice folks!!!
well said.
12-30-2009, 05:39 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Am getting ROASTED by my BMW buddies overthis. I replied w/ Ring lap times.
e92 M3 8:05
Cadillac CTS-V 7:59
05 911S 7:59
09 911S 7:50.
C6 Z06 7:42.9
Nissan GT-R 7:26.7
www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html
What gives??? Different cars suited better for different tracks or did they have no idea how to drive a 911?
e92 M3 8:05
Cadillac CTS-V 7:59
05 911S 7:59
09 911S 7:50.
C6 Z06 7:42.9
Nissan GT-R 7:26.7
www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html
What gives??? Different cars suited better for different tracks or did they have no idea how to drive a 911?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPzG3...eature=related