Since the 997.2 is taking more of a tiptronic approach...
12-27-2008, 12:56 PM
#76
Guys, as a point of reference, PDK is not new and was used extensively in Porsche racing starting in '86 I believe. First in the Supercup series and then on with the 962C. When given the chance to stop using PDK, Bell and Stuck chose to ditch ABS 
12-27-2008, 01:58 PM
#77
I haven't waded through all six pages of this, so maybe someone else has already raised this point. Porsche has been making some version of an "automatic" 911 since 1968. The now-dead "sportomatic" was an absolute dog compared to the manual. The now-dead "tiptronic" was only slightly slower than the manual. And now the PDK is even faster than the manual. I fail to see how Porsche is killing enthusiasts by simply improving on an option they have offered for decades.
Every major car manufacturer in the world offers an "automatic" of some sort in its cars (exception being Lotus, I suppose, if you want to call them "major"). Ferrari (at least before the California) is arguably the closest thing we have to a racing team that just happens to make production vehicles, and they hardly even make 3-pedaled cars anymore. I think Porsche will continue doing just fine. As a "purist," I would be far more worried about the weight added by all the nannies and the inevitable compromises of tightening emissions regulations. But that argument is directed toward the government, not our car companies.
Every major car manufacturer in the world offers an "automatic" of some sort in its cars (exception being Lotus, I suppose, if you want to call them "major"). Ferrari (at least before the California) is arguably the closest thing we have to a racing team that just happens to make production vehicles, and they hardly even make 3-pedaled cars anymore. I think Porsche will continue doing just fine. As a "purist," I would be far more worried about the weight added by all the nannies and the inevitable compromises of tightening emissions regulations. But that argument is directed toward the government, not our car companies.
12-27-2008, 04:00 PM
#80
Race Director
12-27-2008, 06:36 PM
#82
Exactly my point from when this all started. The Model A Ford gave you not only the ability to use a crank, it had a foot rest for you accelerator foot, in car fuel shutoff, in car adjustment of ignition timing, and didn't have the too many fancy things such as efficient heater, brakes that would stop you, etc. I'll bet when the 32 Fords came out with a V8, fuel pump, etc. there were folks complaining about things getting too modern. It will always be.
12-27-2008, 07:11 PM
#83
Race Director
Hummmm....lets see.....the PDK is freakin' fast to shift and rev matches down shifts. The difference is night and day! The Tiptronic is a very good automatic transmission for a normal everyday car and the PDK is a race breed and inspired total performance dual clutch, clutch pedal-less transmission.
12-28-2008, 12:23 AM
#84
Race Director
Electronics at the time were not sophisticated enough for PDK to be streetable so the project was shelved.
Couple other things ...
PDK shifts faster than sequential. Think it will appear in Cup cars???
It is not in the GT series and Turbo cars because the current version can't handle the power. There is another, more robust, version of PDK supposedly coming. $20 says that's true.
Like it or not PDK will be part of the future.
12-28-2008, 12:27 AM
#85
Race Director
Some history ...
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10061347-48.html
It seems like every automaker with a claim to high performance and high technology has an automated-manual transmission today. Ferrari was the first, with the CambioCorsa, followed by BMW's SMG, and then Volkswagen Group's DSG. Mitsubishi has its TC-SST. What took Porsche so long to develop the PDK?
The real question is "what took everybody else so long?" The Porsche-Doppelkupplungsgetriebe name dates from 1983, when the first experimental version was developed and used in a 956 Series-produced endurance race car. A 956 with the experimental gearbox won a German national championship race, and a couple of years later a 962, the 956's descendant, equipped with the gearbox won an international championship race at Monza, in Italy.
So, why didn't the PDK appear in street Porsches by the late 1980s? Given the state of the electronic technology then, it would have been prohibitively expensive and likely none too civilized. The early automated-manual gearboxes that appeared in road cars a decade or more after that were none too civilized, either, and had the benefit of much more development in control technology.
Porsche is, in many ways, conservative, and is not given to jumping on the latest bandwagon. When the time was right, and the PDK was fully-developed and refined enough to operate as smoothly and gently as the torque converter-based Tiptronic it replaces in the 911, it was made public. No apologies necessary--in automatic mode, the PDK is difficult if not impossible to distinguish from a Tiptronic. In manual mode(s), it can shift much more quickly-- even faster than the standard manual gearbox.
How does it work? The PDK is essentially two gearboxes in one, each with its own clutch. They work alternately and sequentially, with the next gear in sequence engaged when the first is selected. Computer control prevents downshifts that would result in engine damage, and, if speed decreases quickly enough, gears can be skipped. Gears are the same standard type as found in a normal manual gearbox, not the planetary gears of a torque converter automatic. Further sensor input and computer control prevents shifting at inopportune times, such as during hard cornering. The motorcycle-type wet clutches and the gearsets have separate lubrication systems, as each needs a different type of lubricating oil.
How well does it work? Very. In automatic mode, it not only is imperceptibly different from a conventional automatic in action, it learns the driver's needs well enough that manual mode is not necessarily better, even when driving with a more-than-moderate degree of enthusiasm. Manually, it shifts much more quickly than the standard six-speed stick, even in its most gentle mode. Unlike many current automated-manual cars, the shift paddles follow the convention of Porsche's previous Tiptronic automatic and don't emulate race-car applications, with separate up- and down-shift paddles. That may be a little confusing at first, but you is quickly adapted. The PDK offers the Porsche 911 owner the best of both worlds.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10061347-48.html
It seems like every automaker with a claim to high performance and high technology has an automated-manual transmission today. Ferrari was the first, with the CambioCorsa, followed by BMW's SMG, and then Volkswagen Group's DSG. Mitsubishi has its TC-SST. What took Porsche so long to develop the PDK?
The real question is "what took everybody else so long?" The Porsche-Doppelkupplungsgetriebe name dates from 1983, when the first experimental version was developed and used in a 956 Series-produced endurance race car. A 956 with the experimental gearbox won a German national championship race, and a couple of years later a 962, the 956's descendant, equipped with the gearbox won an international championship race at Monza, in Italy.
So, why didn't the PDK appear in street Porsches by the late 1980s? Given the state of the electronic technology then, it would have been prohibitively expensive and likely none too civilized. The early automated-manual gearboxes that appeared in road cars a decade or more after that were none too civilized, either, and had the benefit of much more development in control technology.
Porsche is, in many ways, conservative, and is not given to jumping on the latest bandwagon. When the time was right, and the PDK was fully-developed and refined enough to operate as smoothly and gently as the torque converter-based Tiptronic it replaces in the 911, it was made public. No apologies necessary--in automatic mode, the PDK is difficult if not impossible to distinguish from a Tiptronic. In manual mode(s), it can shift much more quickly-- even faster than the standard manual gearbox.
How does it work? The PDK is essentially two gearboxes in one, each with its own clutch. They work alternately and sequentially, with the next gear in sequence engaged when the first is selected. Computer control prevents downshifts that would result in engine damage, and, if speed decreases quickly enough, gears can be skipped. Gears are the same standard type as found in a normal manual gearbox, not the planetary gears of a torque converter automatic. Further sensor input and computer control prevents shifting at inopportune times, such as during hard cornering. The motorcycle-type wet clutches and the gearsets have separate lubrication systems, as each needs a different type of lubricating oil.
How well does it work? Very. In automatic mode, it not only is imperceptibly different from a conventional automatic in action, it learns the driver's needs well enough that manual mode is not necessarily better, even when driving with a more-than-moderate degree of enthusiasm. Manually, it shifts much more quickly than the standard six-speed stick, even in its most gentle mode. Unlike many current automated-manual cars, the shift paddles follow the convention of Porsche's previous Tiptronic automatic and don't emulate race-car applications, with separate up- and down-shift paddles. That may be a little confusing at first, but you is quickly adapted. The PDK offers the Porsche 911 owner the best of both worlds.
