Now the Cayman S has got PDK, reviews are again comparng it to 911
12-24-2008, 06:19 PM
#46
Well, a bit of patience and the prices will likely come down to list. Perhaps sooner than expected due to the current economic headwinds. And not only are many Porsche models a bit simpler in design than the R8, but the evolutionary style of innovation that they have exercised has allowed them to amortize their costs over a great deal of time.
That said, I have had the good fortune of going on a (911) factory tour recently and it was a real thrill for a car and P-car geek. They surely do not cut corners on manufacturing innovation and build quality. And they employ a very interesting set of procedures that are enabled by years of evolution, very German attention to detail (a compliment, I assure you) and low volume, that allows a level of care and attention that high-volume manufacturing precludes.
Nonetheless, I really don't think that the fundamentals of the Porsche versus Audi car line is so gross that their respective cost basis will mandate a long-term discriminator to the buying public.
I truly respect the history, quality, performance and ecosystem of the 911 series, but I (and here begins the flames) believe that the R8 series (or the forthcoming 'R10 and R12') are amazing cars. And, that's right out of the rev1.0 chute. Given time to evolve and improve the design, the separation between these two cars will be increasingly obvious. In fact, it's the respect for the history of the P-car that prevents the press and public from more broadly stating that the R8 is just waaaay better (again, flaming begins).
I actually think that Porsche is a bit stuck here. The Cayman is not the car to enhance and compete with the Audi. Taking a low priced/mass market car upmarke will be off-putting to the 911 demographic. A more practical version of the Carrera GT is, or was (BTW, the C-GT is the only car ever made that would compel me to displace my Ford GT's garage parking spot). Convert from carbon to aluminum, V10 to V8, stick with RWD perhaps, steel brakes, the efficiency of volume manufacturing, and of course the use of aluminum instead of that pricey wooden shift ****
and the R8 would be trembling in it's parking stall.
Five years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if the near-simultaneous launches of the R8 and the GT-R (please don't flame me on this one, it's just another nick in Porsche's business armor) and the redirection of funding to build a mid-engined versus a four-door Quattroporte competitor, will be seen as game changing knee-in-the-curve set of events for our beloved auto company.
That said, I have had the good fortune of going on a (911) factory tour recently and it was a real thrill for a car and P-car geek. They surely do not cut corners on manufacturing innovation and build quality. And they employ a very interesting set of procedures that are enabled by years of evolution, very German attention to detail (a compliment, I assure you) and low volume, that allows a level of care and attention that high-volume manufacturing precludes.
Nonetheless, I really don't think that the fundamentals of the Porsche versus Audi car line is so gross that their respective cost basis will mandate a long-term discriminator to the buying public.
I truly respect the history, quality, performance and ecosystem of the 911 series, but I (and here begins the flames) believe that the R8 series (or the forthcoming 'R10 and R12') are amazing cars. And, that's right out of the rev1.0 chute. Given time to evolve and improve the design, the separation between these two cars will be increasingly obvious. In fact, it's the respect for the history of the P-car that prevents the press and public from more broadly stating that the R8 is just waaaay better (again, flaming begins).
I actually think that Porsche is a bit stuck here. The Cayman is not the car to enhance and compete with the Audi. Taking a low priced/mass market car upmarke will be off-putting to the 911 demographic. A more practical version of the Carrera GT is, or was (BTW, the C-GT is the only car ever made that would compel me to displace my Ford GT's garage parking spot). Convert from carbon to aluminum, V10 to V8, stick with RWD perhaps, steel brakes, the efficiency of volume manufacturing, and of course the use of aluminum instead of that pricey wooden shift ****
and the R8 would be trembling in it's parking stall. Five years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if the near-simultaneous launches of the R8 and the GT-R (please don't flame me on this one, it's just another nick in Porsche's business armor) and the redirection of funding to build a mid-engined versus a four-door Quattroporte competitor, will be seen as game changing knee-in-the-curve set of events for our beloved auto company.
^+1, nice post. If one could get an R8 at anywhere near its list price it would kill a lot more Porsche sales.
At their comparable list prices, the R8 gives the complexity of 4wd, all aluminum body and a V8 engine while a GT3 only delivers a steel body, 6 cylinders and 2 wheel drive. This is not to say I like 4WD cars, the point is the Audi must be a lot more expensive to produce.
Interesting that the 2 sides of the Porsche clan is composed of Ferry Porsche's children the "Porsche side" and Louise Piech's (Ferry's sister) children the "Piech side". In the 70's when the family was fighting over control of the business, Ferdinand Piech was in charge of engineering which at the time was notable for producing the 906,907,908,910 and 917 under his watch.
Now the family is still fighting it seems since Ferdinand Piech essentially runs VW/Audi which the Porsche side of the family is busy trying to control...
At their comparable list prices, the R8 gives the complexity of 4wd, all aluminum body and a V8 engine while a GT3 only delivers a steel body, 6 cylinders and 2 wheel drive. This is not to say I like 4WD cars, the point is the Audi must be a lot more expensive to produce.
Interesting that the 2 sides of the Porsche clan is composed of Ferry Porsche's children the "Porsche side" and Louise Piech's (Ferry's sister) children the "Piech side". In the 70's when the family was fighting over control of the business, Ferdinand Piech was in charge of engineering which at the time was notable for producing the 906,907,908,910 and 917 under his watch.
Now the family is still fighting it seems since Ferdinand Piech essentially runs VW/Audi which the Porsche side of the family is busy trying to control...
12-24-2008, 06:52 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
Pictures taken by me during a visit to Porsche in 1983 showing the best use for a 911 rear seat: For the factory workers to take a break and read the paper.
Taking a nap is another possibility with the extra space afforded by a rear engine:
Taking a nap is another possibility with the extra space afforded by a rear engine:
