Now the Cayman S has got PDK, reviews are again comparng it to 911
12-22-2008, 03:30 PM
#31
However, has anyone noticed the price of the new one? This month's issue of Winding Road tested one and loved it. However, the "as-tested" price was a stunning $95k. Now granted this one was pretty fully optioned, but $95k? Can't you about buy a used 7GT3 for that price? No way I would even consider a Cayman S at anything approaching that price point.
$95k Cayman S? Zuffenhausen DPW must be puttin' crack in the water system! Porsche seems to be TRYING to earn my derision by disrespecting my wallet.
12-22-2008, 04:21 PM
#32
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Before I got one, I had wanted a 911 for years. I bought in to the history, and I bought in to the tradition. I've never felt that way about the Cayman, and I don't think I ever will. It's a fine car, but it doesn't speak to me the way the 911 did (and now does).
12-22-2008, 04:48 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
YOU are a marketing persons DREAM!
enjoy your 997
cheers
Craig
12-22-2008, 07:12 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
The first Porsche was a mid-engine roadster design based on Dr. Porsche's ideal as mid-engine being best for a pure sports car but, quoting from Ludvigsens Excellence was Expected on the reason for abandoning the mid-engine concept:
"...the roadster's engine placement had been seen, quite early on, to impose sharp limitations on the amount of useful space that could be enclosed inside the body. To get the extra luggage space that would make the car more appealing as a versatile touring machine, the engine was put back in the normal VW location behind the axle...a change that had a negative effect on the handling."
They were prescient as it appears the space is more important to sales than handling.
If Porsche ever puts the high end GT engine and gearbox in the Cayman I am a customer though.
"...the roadster's engine placement had been seen, quite early on, to impose sharp limitations on the amount of useful space that could be enclosed inside the body. To get the extra luggage space that would make the car more appealing as a versatile touring machine, the engine was put back in the normal VW location behind the axle...a change that had a negative effect on the handling."
They were prescient as it appears the space is more important to sales than handling.
If Porsche ever puts the high end GT engine and gearbox in the Cayman I am a customer though.
12-22-2008, 07:26 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
+1;
Re the quote, the stated design intent for the 911 is clear:
"...the roadster's engine placement had been seen, quite early on, to impose sharp limitations on the amount of useful space that could be enclosed inside the body. To get the extra luggage space that would make the car more appealing as a versatile touring machine, the engine was put back in the normal VW location behind the axle...a change that had a negative effect on the handling."
There is no reason then to keep the sports (roadster) car of the line up underpowered and not a, if not the, face of the GT2 racing program.
Re the quote, the stated design intent for the 911 is clear:
"...the roadster's engine placement had been seen, quite early on, to impose sharp limitations on the amount of useful space that could be enclosed inside the body. To get the extra luggage space that would make the car more appealing as a versatile touring machine, the engine was put back in the normal VW location behind the axle...a change that had a negative effect on the handling."
There is no reason then to keep the sports (roadster) car of the line up underpowered and not a, if not the, face of the GT2 racing program.
12-22-2008, 08:09 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
+1;
Re the quote, the stated design intent for the 911 is clear:
"...the roadster's engine placement had been seen, quite early on, to impose sharp limitations on the amount of useful space that could be enclosed inside the body. To get the extra luggage space that would make the car more appealing as a versatile touring machine, the engine was put back in the normal VW location behind the axle...a change that had a negative effect on the handling."
There is no reason then to keep the sports (roadster) car of the line up underpowered and not a, if not the, face of the GT2 racing program.
Re the quote, the stated design intent for the 911 is clear:
"...the roadster's engine placement had been seen, quite early on, to impose sharp limitations on the amount of useful space that could be enclosed inside the body. To get the extra luggage space that would make the car more appealing as a versatile touring machine, the engine was put back in the normal VW location behind the axle...a change that had a negative effect on the handling."
There is no reason then to keep the sports (roadster) car of the line up underpowered and not a, if not the, face of the GT2 racing program.
12-22-2008, 10:48 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
^ Yep; and thats exactly what is happening. Maybe when the presently Porsche Farnbacher Loles and Flying Lizard Teams go F430, as the rumors imply, the hand will be forced.
12-22-2008, 10:58 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Porsche management should allow the full development of the 987 line to include racing, possibly a Cayman Cup. There is no particular historic basis for not developing the 987s further, the 914 was developed to race by the factory almost immediately after it's introduction. I suspect that Porsche management has shied away from racing the Cayman due to costs more than any other reason. The 911 has a long established racing history and its target market is more affluent (on average) than the 987 market, so it's easier for the bean counters to sleep knowing that there may potentially be some monetary gain from all that outlay. Insofar as Cayman vs. 911 is concerned both are excellent automobiles, but the 997 is not the 911 of yesteryear. My father owned a 73T and a 77S and the overall ambience of those cars was closer to the Cayman than the current 997. Place an early 911 next to a 997 and you'll see a dramatic difference in size/volume. Obviously the concept of a sports car has changed over the years. Owners expect a level of comfort and reliability all around that was unheard of in a previous era. There aren't too many Triumph Spitfires/MGBs/MG Midgets around, but those were really little cars that had only a little HP but were incredibly nimble and lithe (when they ran!).
12-23-2008, 09:59 AM
#39
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I bought into the history and tradition with an 2006 997S after owning a 2003 Boxster S. It was a great car. When I get in the seat of my Cayman S I am rewarded with a better driving experience. I also prefer the tighter quarters inside the car. It adds to the experience. I think its great the 911 has rear seats for those that need them.
12-23-2008, 11:35 AM
#40
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The 914 was raced only with a 2 liter engine but ,since Porsche never wanted to let the 914 beat the 911, the racing 911s of the time had a 2.5 liter engine.
The same concept applies today vis a vis 911 and 986, 987. Equilibrate the horsepower and see what happens.
The same concept applies today vis a vis 911 and 986, 987. Equilibrate the horsepower and see what happens.
Last edited by Cupcar; 12-23-2008 at 12:23 PM.
12-24-2008, 11:30 AM
#41
Rennlist Member
Porsche management should allow the full development of the 987 line to include racing, possibly a Cayman Cup. There is no particular historic basis for not developing the 987s further, the 914 was developed to race by the factory almost immediately after it's introduction. I suspect that Porsche management has shied away from racing the Cayman due to costs more than any other reason. The 911 has a long established racing history and its target market is more affluent (on average) than the 987 market, so it's easier for the bean counters to sleep knowing that there may potentially be some monetary gain from all that outlay. Insofar as Cayman vs. 911 is concerned both are excellent automobiles, but the 997 is not the 911 of yesteryear. My father owned a 73T and a 77S and the overall ambience of those cars was closer to the Cayman than the current 997. Place an early 911 next to a 997 and you'll see a dramatic difference in size/volume. Obviously the concept of a sports car has changed over the years. Owners expect a level of comfort and reliability all around that was unheard of in a previous era. There aren't too many Triumph Spitfires/MGBs/MG Midgets around, but those were really little cars that had only a little HP but were incredibly nimble and lithe (when they ran!).
A racing series like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txWM686If7M
12-24-2008, 02:34 PM
#42
I think Porsche engineering has done everything, short of defying physics, to get the 911 to handle safely and aggressively. So, though the 911 is the iconic Porsche, with a history and following unlike any other, the auto-world, like every other sub-culture, can be very fickle.
Taking a beating in racing from the hands of Ferrari, and now and very suddenly and unexpectedly, getting out-reviewed by Audi with the spectacular R8 has to have Porsche folks scrambling.
Cadillac (be patient please) learned the hard way what happens if you listen solely to your installed base. In their case, they, um, die.
Die hards alone do not comprise enough of a market to keep the 911 at the top of the heap. BTW, I like the extra space behind the front seats. But not a reason to justify the handling tradeoff. I believe Porsche will have to radically enhance the Cayman and take it much more seriously. A GT3 version, a turbo version, a better looking (IMHO) version are all required.
Owning a 911 (and a 914 long ago) and having driven a Cayman (albeit I'm mid-engined biased), the dynamics and capabilities of the less evolved mid-engined P-car seem far better and loaded with potential.
There are lots of industry examples of it being better to cannibalize yourself before someone else does. Porsche has their job cut out for them, but they're much better off doing it from a position of strength.
I am a long-term P-car lover, but next buying cycle for me, if there's an R8 TDI Cab out there (very unlikely and I accept that that's a weird combo), I'm there.
Listen carefully Porsche management.
Taking a beating in racing from the hands of Ferrari, and now and very suddenly and unexpectedly, getting out-reviewed by Audi with the spectacular R8 has to have Porsche folks scrambling.
Cadillac (be patient please) learned the hard way what happens if you listen solely to your installed base. In their case, they, um, die.
Die hards alone do not comprise enough of a market to keep the 911 at the top of the heap. BTW, I like the extra space behind the front seats. But not a reason to justify the handling tradeoff. I believe Porsche will have to radically enhance the Cayman and take it much more seriously. A GT3 version, a turbo version, a better looking (IMHO) version are all required.
Owning a 911 (and a 914 long ago) and having driven a Cayman (albeit I'm mid-engined biased), the dynamics and capabilities of the less evolved mid-engined P-car seem far better and loaded with potential.
There are lots of industry examples of it being better to cannibalize yourself before someone else does. Porsche has their job cut out for them, but they're much better off doing it from a position of strength.
I am a long-term P-car lover, but next buying cycle for me, if there's an R8 TDI Cab out there (very unlikely and I accept that that's a weird combo), I'm there.
Listen carefully Porsche management.
12-24-2008, 05:09 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
I think Porsche engineering has done everything, short of defying physics, to get the 911 to handle safely and aggressively. So, though the 911 is the iconic Porsche, with a history and following unlike any other, the auto-world, like every other sub-culture, can be very fickle.
Taking a beating in racing from the hands of Ferrari, and now and very suddenly and unexpectedly, getting out-reviewed by Audi with the spectacular R8 has to have Porsche folks scrambling.
Cadillac (be patient please) learned the hard way what happens if you listen solely to your installed base. In their case, they, um, die.
Die hards alone do not comprise enough of a market to keep the 911 at the top of the heap. BTW, I like the extra space behind the front seats. But not a reason to justify the handling tradeoff. I believe Porsche will have to radically enhance the Cayman and take it much more seriously. A GT3 version, a turbo version, a better looking (IMHO) version are all required.
Owning a 911 (and a 914 long ago) and having driven a Cayman (albeit I'm mid-engined biased), the dynamics and capabilities of the less evolved mid-engined P-car seem far better and loaded with potential.
There are lots of industry examples of it being better to cannibalize yourself before someone else does. Porsche has their job cut out for them, but they're much better off doing it from a position of strength.
I am a long-term P-car lover, but next buying cycle for me, if there's an R8 TDI Cab out there (very unlikely and I accept that that's a weird combo), I'm there.
Listen carefully Porsche management.
Taking a beating in racing from the hands of Ferrari, and now and very suddenly and unexpectedly, getting out-reviewed by Audi with the spectacular R8 has to have Porsche folks scrambling.
Cadillac (be patient please) learned the hard way what happens if you listen solely to your installed base. In their case, they, um, die.
Die hards alone do not comprise enough of a market to keep the 911 at the top of the heap. BTW, I like the extra space behind the front seats. But not a reason to justify the handling tradeoff. I believe Porsche will have to radically enhance the Cayman and take it much more seriously. A GT3 version, a turbo version, a better looking (IMHO) version are all required.
Owning a 911 (and a 914 long ago) and having driven a Cayman (albeit I'm mid-engined biased), the dynamics and capabilities of the less evolved mid-engined P-car seem far better and loaded with potential.
There are lots of industry examples of it being better to cannibalize yourself before someone else does. Porsche has their job cut out for them, but they're much better off doing it from a position of strength.
I am a long-term P-car lover, but next buying cycle for me, if there's an R8 TDI Cab out there (very unlikely and I accept that that's a weird combo), I'm there.
Listen carefully Porsche management.
At their comparable list prices, the R8 gives the complexity of 4wd, all aluminum body and a V8 engine while a GT3 only delivers a steel body, 6 cylinders and 2 wheel drive. This is not to say I like 4WD cars, the point is the Audi must be a lot more expensive to produce.
Interesting that the 2 sides of the Porsche clan is composed of Ferry Porsche's children the "Porsche side" and Louise Piech's (Ferry's sister) children the "Piech side". In the 70's when the family was fighting over control of the business, Ferdinand Piech was in charge of engineering which at the time was notable for producing the 906,907,908,910 and 917 under his watch.
Now the family is still fighting it seems since Ferdinand Piech essentially runs VW/Audi which the Porsche side of the family is busy trying to control...
12-24-2008, 05:27 PM
#44
GT3 player par excellence
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if you want 911, buy a 911.
if you need rear seat, ditch the cayman.
the cayman has some issues, many of which caused me to stop tracking it (i had GT3 before and after cayman, and sometimes had both at the same track same day). there are many things PAG can and should improve on the platform. but if you put identical drivetrain in it (of course assuming it fits), cayman will be as fast if not faster than 911.
i am waiting for that car. when it shows up, i will kick my GT3 out the garage.
if you need rear seat, ditch the cayman.
the cayman has some issues, many of which caused me to stop tracking it (i had GT3 before and after cayman, and sometimes had both at the same track same day). there are many things PAG can and should improve on the platform. but if you put identical drivetrain in it (of course assuming it fits), cayman will be as fast if not faster than 911.
i am waiting for that car. when it shows up, i will kick my GT3 out the garage.
12-24-2008, 05:48 PM
#45
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Now the Cayman S has got PDK, reviews/first drives of it are comparng it to 911
I remember when the Cayman S was introduced 3 years ago many reviewers said how purer the Cayman is as a sports car over the 911 etc
Now with the PDK test drives of cayman S they now again commnet how much better it is over 911 in terms of balance and handling and power output which is close to base 911
I am not sure why the Cayman S is compared always to 911 but my observations were the following after owning the caymas S for a year and before that a Boxster S
1) The boxster S and Cayman S feel remarkably similar in feel and handling and grip
2) The 911 especially S with 19" rubber has much better traction on startup, better handling, ofcourse roomier and sounds nicer
Although the mid engine design, physics wise may be a better design but the 911 rear engine placement gives it awesome traction and the engineers have done a good job of making it handle as good if not better than Cayman S
What do ya guys think ?
I remember when the Cayman S was introduced 3 years ago many reviewers said how purer the Cayman is as a sports car over the 911 etc
Now with the PDK test drives of cayman S they now again commnet how much better it is over 911 in terms of balance and handling and power output which is close to base 911
I am not sure why the Cayman S is compared always to 911 but my observations were the following after owning the caymas S for a year and before that a Boxster S
1) The boxster S and Cayman S feel remarkably similar in feel and handling and grip
2) The 911 especially S with 19" rubber has much better traction on startup, better handling, ofcourse roomier and sounds nicer
Although the mid engine design, physics wise may be a better design but the 911 rear engine placement gives it awesome traction and the engineers have done a good job of making it handle as good if not better than Cayman S
What do ya guys think ?
