jakes dad

Gosh, I just love these kinds of postings.....

utkinpol

best part of it is - 9a1 is capable of pushing ou 450 horses. I want to beleive any 9a1 motor gets same rod bolts and other critical internals, so, if you have a stock street car with 9a1 tuned to 400hp horses it sort of makes a promise that it will survive for some reasonable time and all bolts, bearings, sleeves, etc stuff will be intact.
only time will tell, obviously.

KNS

What stinks is that some early 996s are reaching into mid and upper teens in value. If your motor grenades and you're looking at a $12-15K rebuild/replacement, you are going to think long and hard about even keeping the car.

The early 997s will eventually depreciate to the mid and upper teens as well with the same grim prospects if your motor should let go. I think the majority of purchasers will drive them happily with no knowledge of what an IMS even is. I'm considering one but I would like to get something back out of my rebuild costs (should it happen).

A 993, on the other hand, is no longer depreciating. You can rebuild your motor and still get $30-35K when it comes time to sell your car. The big question is will the 996s or 997s ever reach the status of the earlier cars and rebuilding justifies the expense.

Jay H

The 996's and 997 will positively become a 911 to restore and justify it's restoration costs. Why? Let's look at history to show us what will happen.

Go back to the early to mid '90's. Long hood (pre 1974) 911's were not all that desireable. You could buy a clapped out, but running long hood for $5000 to $8000. A nice one might have been $12k. Fast forward to today's day and age and you can't touch a nice 2.0, 2.2 or 2.4 liter car for under $40k. Runners bring $25k all day long. A perfect, low mileage show quality long hood is 6 figures and you better act fast 'cause that one that is for sale now isn't going to be on the block very long. Bid high and bid often. A rusty long hood tub with an early VIN is $10k...at least. Find a '64 or '65 and you'll pay big dollars for the privilege of having that first year VIN.

Back to the mid 1990's... The 1974 to 1977 2.7 liter cars were the joke of the club. Those motors lasted 30,000 miles in a warm climate to maybe 60,000 miles in Seattle where it's cold and raining all the time. The mag cases didn't hold up with those insanely hot thermal reactors cooking the motor above them. All to meet emissions. A rebuild on that motor was $10k a decade ago. It's probably $15k by now to do a 2.7 liter the right way. If you want a very clean, original, low mileage 2.7 liter car, it'll cost you $20k; maybe more. These cars are climbing and getting somewhat desirable due to their simplicity, light weight and slab sided styling with the now classic impact bumper look. One of the most fun 911's I've ever driven was a 1977 with a recently rebuilt motor, transmission and suspension. That was fun in capital letters.

More...

I have a 1990 964 with 34k on the clock. I bought it in 2000 when these cars were again the ugly duckling of the 911 world. Nobody wanted these "junk" 911's due to the tendency of some of the motors to leak in the cylinder to head area. Everyone told me to avoid a 964 like the plague. I bought mine at fire sale prices due to that reputation. $5,000 to do the machining work back in 2000...now it's more like $8k and due to the age of the cars, add in another $5,000 for the "while you're in there" costs of a new clutch, flywheel, seals, etc., etc.

I recently put a feeler out there for my 964 to find out what it's worth. I received two unsolicited offers that were quite a bit more than what I paid for the car back in 2000, so the car is starting to appreciate. These buyers had cash and would send a shipping truck immediately without seeing the car. Go find a low mileage, concours quality 964 and you'll pay a few bucks for it. There are plenty of clapped out high mileage ones, but the nice ones are few and far between and bringing good money.

Right now, the 986/996/987/997 product lines will continue to depreciate. Just let time do it's job and values will again rise and make it worth it to restore these cars. It's happened time and time again. These first water cooled cars are great cars, well built cars and are very fun to drive. The teenage boys with the poster of the hot chick leaning on the 996 Turbo on their wall will, I guarantee, grow up, have disposable income and then wish to restore a 996 when they are in their 50's and will pay big bucks for a clapped out tub to send to the restoration shop.

Finally, the aftermarket is just getting going on the issues of the M96 motors. We have very solid solutions for replacing IMS bearings, flanges and the associated IM shaft. Add more years and the IMS bearing failures will be a non issue since it'll be a wear item that is as easy to change as a clutch.

Have you all seen this handy little product from Jake?

IMS Guardian

I apologize for the very long winded post.

Jay
06 997 (w/built in IMS failure)
84 3.2 (w/built in premature valve guide failure)
90 964 (w/built in cyl to head leakage)

simsgw

Not at all, Jay. Well said. Nice to see somebody else remembers the old days.

Gary

utkinpol

i would want to beleive that but right now there is from none to very small market offerings if you would like to restore your M96/M97 engine.
If you compare to market of available options for old air cooled or water-cooled 3.6L GT3 engines M96/M97 restoration market simply does not exist.
There is a very little niche of cars in 996 spec racing class but total majority of those folks also does not restore m96 motors - they throw them away and put in new ones. so, i do not know.

I will run my car until it lasts, but when motor goes i do not know what will i do. 997.1 roller car costs nothing, new m96 engine costs a lot and you get also close to nothing compared to what 9a1 motor does. It would be nice if Porsche would offer 'upgrade' options like modified ECU/motor combos so, say, you could put 9a1 into 997.1 car body but they do not even bother to do such a thing, regrettably. i would LOVE to keep current platform i have and upgrade engine ony rather than to buy a newer car. but, well, what can you do.

AYHSMB

I'm not convinced the 996 will ever become a classic. I think it's rather more like the 300Z - an attempt to modernize a classic car that doesn't quite work and will never become a classic.

In any case, there are a few problems with M96/97 that make it not the same as past Porsche motors. They may have had issues, but the block was fundamentally good and worth saving. The M96/97 not only have a bunch of peripheral issues (IMS,AOS, rod bolts, chain guides, etc.) but also fundamental problems in the block (lokasil weaknesses, ovalled cylinders, weak open deck, poor coolant flow, scored cylinders, oil pickup locations) which make it not really worth rebuilding. Furthermore when it does fail it tends to grenade badly.

Furthermore, a huge rift opened with the 996 when Porsche split the "race" Carreras from the "consumer" Carreras. In the past you could get OEM or aftermarket upgraded components for your 911. Now all the upgraded components are not made for the consumer-grade Carrera.

Hopefully this is getting fixed with the next gen. If they actually race the 9A1 then there will once again be a line of parts that connects directly from the race cars down to the lowest spec 911.

I love my 997, don't get me wrong, it's a fabulous car. But if my engine ever goes I wish I could put a 9A1 or M64/GT1 engine in it. It boggles my mind how many Porsche owners have had engine failures and turn around and put another M96/97 right back in the car.

One nice thing about the 996 getting so cheap is that we're seeing more "shade tree" mechanics buy them and do funny things like put LS1's in them. I don't think that's the ideal engine for a 911 but it's nice to see some alternative thinking.

AYHSMB

BTW I suggest anyone who does have an engine failure should fill out the easy NHTSA form :

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

It appears to be the best/only way to get the problem officially counted.

utkinpol

I would offer anybody who is interested to have this issue resolved to contact PCNA directly and request them to create a program to swap out old m96/m97 engine from any 997.1 car and replace it with new 9a1 motor.
all they have to do for that is to alter new siemens ECU to work with older 997.1 bus/sensors. should be a piece of cake thing to do. i would not mind to pay $20K-$30K to get that done on my car. it is really an idiotic situation when they do know of all issues in ,96/m97 motor and when it blows they give you same one again. it really sucks and they can easily do better if they will be forced to do so.

stab1991

Utkinpol, just a question, u have a 997.1 but all your posts slam the engine, what problems have u had with it. I know there are flaws with the design but it is also a car we take on the track and run it hard, then sit in traffic in comfort with the air on. Plus if we had the maintenance schedule of Ferrari maybe the ims would be replaced with the engine out service every 10000 miles but we would all bit** at that cost. I have piece of mind with a year left on warranty and 3 more of cpo. After that it's a crap shoot with any high performance car.

Now I agree that early boxster and 996 engines had far too many problems and case issues. Can u believe there was no quality control checks with those early cases lol.

nkhalidi

I see the demand. How does supply fit in to your hypothesis?

utkinpol

i just tried to count how many people whom i contacted on forums or at DEs lost their engines since year '09 and i counted 7. one of them was 2.5L bosxter, others were 996 and 997 cars.
to me it is a concern enough as i may be know 40 people top who own p-cars, and 7 out of 40 is way unpleasant statistic for me. and as i do not behave like an ostrich who hides his head in the sand, usually, so, that is why i posted this.

btw of those who thinks IMS issue does not apply to 06+ cars - speak to lead mechanics at dealerships, if you have good contact with them. it does happen, not as often as with 996 cars but often enough.
all i was advocating for was to press PCNA to offer an option to choose what motor you want to put in your car as right now you can only get discount if you get direct replacement with same exact engine you have, otherwise you are forced to pay full retail.

KNS

I'm sure it has been referenced here before but the 'total911' website was a real eye opener for me. Like I said, I'd love to get a water cooled car but on the site mentioned there too many failures (996s and 997.1s) for comfort.

Jay H

At this point, failed motors are usually junked. Again, time will tell if there is enough supply of used motors (or totalled cars with good motors) to allow a classic 996 to receive a transplant with a solid M96 motor.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the aftermarket get really good at stuffing a 9A1 motor into the older 996 and 997.1 chassis and getting software and wiring harness to "bolt right up" in 20 years.

As I mentioned before, the aftermarket is just starting to get going on fixes for the M96/97 motor. With another 20 years under their belt, I bet the fixes will be plentiful and common. There was quite a few water cooled cars built, so supply may be enough to keep the restoration shops going on the early water cooled cars that will be restored.

It's all guess work at this point in time.

Best,

Jay

stab1991

7 out of 40, I would be telling it too. That's just shameful. When I switched to the new (for then) C6 platform, we had problems with some Ls2 engines but it was rare. And with the gen 4 viper, no problems at all. I guess sometimes simpler is better. But I do still love my cab. Although I'm sure I'll have traded up before my warranty is up.