nitewing

Hi all,

I searched the archives and didn't find this topic - but as I'm looking to buy a 997 series (06 or 07 C2 or C2S) I'm having a hard time getting an accurate value on the used market. KBB is several thousand higher in each category than Edmunds "TMV" pricing - and when I talk to dealers about true market value, they just say "you can't go by book value."

In this market, I don't think I need to pay more than trade-in value, but it's hard to know what that number is! Any help in finding an accurate source for todays trade-in value as well as private party sale value would be appreciated.

AngM018

KBB, and Edmunds are only a gauge of the market. you cannot use these to get an accuate number. They are updated every 6 months or so, while dealers "black book" is updated bi-weekly. Now with the internet, dealers will use Manheim, and acutally see what vehicles have hit the auction block within hours/days/weeks. Luckily b/c of the lower production numbers of Porsche compared to the high volume manufacterers, P-cars are not taking as big of a hit as you may think. Its all about supply, and demand. If you would like to purchase a Porsche at trade-in value, get yourself a dealer license and head to the auction block.

nitewing

Thanks for the info. Given what I've seen in the "supply vs demand" category...I would say that supply far exceeds demand right now. Nothing is selling on ebay or autotrader at the prices currently listed - so I see the same cars listed over and over. After a couple of months, the prices drop - but still no buyers because their "reserve price" is too high. It may take a bit longer to sink in, but with winter coming on I think the only way for p-car sellers to move a car in this market is to lower their price closer to trade-in value. That's just what I've seen. The few porsches that I've seen sold have been going for the KBB trade-in value.

Ucube

It sounds like the best thing to do from your perspective is to simply put in a bid to buy at trade-in value and go from there. The sellers either take it or leave it.

Likemystoppie?

Edmunds and KBB have a hard time on real value. What car are you seeking?

Food for thought: Porsche is not like other car companies. While most enjoy stupidly rich incentives and cash back; Porsche does not offer ANY incentives or Cash back. That element affects what the value of the car is. And since the rest of the market has taken to the toilet- you're seeing pricing hold steady on the CPO cars because there has not been any 'write downs' on the cars at the auction.

example: 2007 E350 4 matic with P01 pkg, with about 18k on it. It's around a $58500+/- car new, right? Right. Car get's off of lease early (24/27month lease) - buyout is like 41k on it. Dealer passes because you can buy a new 2008 for about 47k net net. Dealer passes on it b/c at 41k- they must certify it and retail it.
So you're talking on the lot for about 45-46k, right? No way would someone spend that nor is that what the market is bearing. Soooo


OFF TO AUCTION IT GOES! it goes round 1, round 2 round 3- round 4!!! round 5!! and round 6 finally someone is willing to spend 32k on the car with a 41k buyout.

That's almost 10k 'write down' loss to the bank. Ouch!!!! So then it goes to the MB lot and is sold CPO for high 30's. Make sense now?

With Porsche the dealers are left with the flaming bag of **** (not literally, I love Porsche!!) meaning we have to take a net loss on it by writing it down.

So, wait another month if you don't find what you want, or if you DO see what you like, call the dealership up and hope they kick *** like I do and price aggressively to earn another fat and happy client. Minus the fat. Add the happy.

Hope that helps yall.


Sanner

Fred2

Some Porsche relevant content

From another site
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...=217717&page=5

<snip>
Having been in the Ferrari biz when the market crashed in 87, and through the great hype of the late 80's I can tell you that when times are tough, very few people buy cars. The day the market crashed in 87 I was negotiating to purchase an 82 BBi for 70K as I recall. I got cold feet given the market, a week later the seller offered me the car for $50K, I suspect it could have been had for less. Business more or less stops and you hope the service / parts department will pay the bills. We a new F40 in stock from 91 to 94, many stores had 91 TR's instock for years. We had 348's in stock that had several birthdays. Most banks do not like to floor old-age units.

And used cars are worse, I suspect many dealers are sweating over the number of 360's / 430's they have in stock.

I am no longer in the Ferrari business, but I can tell you the Porsche business has come to a crashing halt....and I've had a few orders canceled with people walking away from sizable deposits. Interestingly enough, low and mid-level MBZ and BMW are still selling moderately well, however I suspect most of those car are sold as "transportation", which everyone needs.
<snip>

Likemystoppie?

No one needs a MB or BMW. It's just exactly as I described above. And as far as someone walking away from sizable deposits- I doubt that in todays economic climate.

Although the MB and BMW product is much less expensive; the typical E Class and 5 Series client is NOT like the typical 911 client.


White. Male. Executive/Entreprenuer/Professional. Financially independant. And most likely financially stable. Infact 80% of the 911 buyer fall into this category.

A little different then the typical E Class or 5 series buyer.

Fred2

I don't think the Porsche buyer is significantly different from the Ferrari purchasers as far as demographics go.
According to this report, the fall in sales mirrors the one in Ferrari land.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...01/144475.html

<snip>
ATLANTA, GA. Oct. 1, 2008 - Porsche Cars North America, Inc. (PCNA), importer and distributor of Porsche sports cars and Cayenne SUVs in the United States, today announced September sales of 1,458 in the United States compared to last year's record-breaking September total of 2,641, a decrease of 45%.

For the nine months of calendar year 2008, Porsche sales are now 21,076 vs. 26,278 over the same period in 2007.
<snip>

Likemystoppie?

Do you know how PAG and PCNA are responding to this? .....take a wild guess....

Fred2

Typical European Arrogance?

InTheAir

I haven't heard if this "downturn" was a result of ~lack of buying interest~ or the reduced value of the dollar prompting Porsche not to deliver as many cars to the US market. I had read somewhere that Porsche's profit margin was down in the US due to the value of the dollar compared to their reluctance to actually raise the price. Shipping cars to markets other than the US would explain the decrease.

Circe

I think Ucube has it right. Add to that a suggestion to call your insurance agent and ask which guide book your insurance carrier’s claim department uses to evaluate total losses and thefts. The agent or claim dept may be able to provide you with a couple of pages copied from the book of choice to help you establish values. Or, check with your state insurance department. They’ll tell you which book or books they required carriers to use. Refer to it. Then you can put a relative value on the 06 you see in the dealer’s yard.

At some point you have make an offer. I like Ucube’s suggestion to offer trade in value as an opener. These are serious times for the world economies; everyone is effected and no one is out of the woods. You don’t have to care what Porsche is doing, just know the local dealer and salesmen have to eat. That means they have to sell automobiles. With tougher economic times ahead, I’ll bet discretionary spending will be the first to be curtailed. This has got to filter down to fewer customers in the show room. No, sales won’t completely dry up, at least I hope not, but the economy will impact dealers’ sales numbers. If you are in a position to buy, play the economy to your favor. Keep your number very low reasonable; remember, you can pay retail any day.

Jus my .02

Likemystoppie?

If you mean by lowering profit margins to dealers, lowering production and allocation to north america to hedge the bleeding and keep the stock heathly, jobs for employee's and the Company enabled to ride out the storm as a whole, if you mean THAT typical european arrogance- then yes. You'd be dead on.

If you mean by employing a smarter business model then our 100% arrogant and delusioned American brands, if you mean THAT typical european arrogance, then yes, you'd be correct again.

otherwise I think your point was lost....

Fred2

Yet none of this addresses the original post which was about Blue Book Values. There are more used Porsches out there than there are buyers for them. Too much supply, too little demand due to the current market conditions.
Guess where the price is going, and neither Porsche AG or PNA has control over that. A used 997 is a $50K toy, and if a potential buyer can't get a loan, or is worried about losing his job, he is not going to pay KBB retail for one.
As a matter of fact, cars being offered for sale at less than KBB trade is are just sitting there without offers on them.

George from MD

I think Porsche has a number of choices:

1. Lowering profit margins to dealers, and decrease production and allocation to NA are just one. How that will keep the stock healthy I'm not sure. Lowered production means less work, less revenue and less profit. No hiring, more firing, less $ for R&D. Some dealers might go under and in the worst case a domino effect could ensue.

2. Throw money in the trunk to help dealers move the cars (like they did back in the nineties).

3. Lower the price.

4. Provide more options at the same price.

4. Nothing.

As to the used car values my recent private party purchase was significantly less than KBB/Edmunds wholesale and ridiculously lower than dealer asking prices. My state even levied more sales tax as I had no bill of sale. Yes I got a good deal but I'm sure not alone out here. When the economy gets bad the values of toy cars and boats are the first thing to go south.