I'm starting to hate my C2S
08-23-2008, 11:57 AM
#62
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I don't think that would make a car more fun, being at or near its limits more often. That's what I encounter every day driving my Mini, and it certainly is no fun for me.
Granted, mine is the underpowered version - the base Mini - and I often find myself pushing that tiny 4-banger to its limits all the time, putting excessive strain on the engine, no doubt prematurely shortening its life. And that's just to merge into fast moving traffic on freeways.
Although the car handles better than most in its class, the one thing I am constantly aware of is the frustration I feel in being at the car's limits most of the time and not being able to enjoy myself, much less have fun while I'm struggling with the gearbox to get the car to perform better. But it won't perform any better. The car is at its limits and that's the best it'll do. Hence the palpable frustration.
To me, a good analogy is using power tools. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to get a job done with underpowered tools. The tool heats up quickly, the work is sloppy because of the lack of controlled precision having the tool at its limits, straining. Whereas a professional tool with more reserve power than you actually need makes the job fun, and makes you want to find something else to use your powerful tool on just for the sheer joy of seeing a fine piece of machinery make short work of a job without so much as breaking a sweat, or, better said, warming up the motor windings. That to me is fun.
Granted, mine is the underpowered version - the base Mini - and I often find myself pushing that tiny 4-banger to its limits all the time, putting excessive strain on the engine, no doubt prematurely shortening its life. And that's just to merge into fast moving traffic on freeways.
Although the car handles better than most in its class, the one thing I am constantly aware of is the frustration I feel in being at the car's limits most of the time and not being able to enjoy myself, much less have fun while I'm struggling with the gearbox to get the car to perform better. But it won't perform any better. The car is at its limits and that's the best it'll do. Hence the palpable frustration.
To me, a good analogy is using power tools. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to get a job done with underpowered tools. The tool heats up quickly, the work is sloppy because of the lack of controlled precision having the tool at its limits, straining. Whereas a professional tool with more reserve power than you actually need makes the job fun, and makes you want to find something else to use your powerful tool on just for the sheer joy of seeing a fine piece of machinery make short work of a job without so much as breaking a sweat, or, better said, warming up the motor windings. That to me is fun.
08-23-2008, 03:11 PM
#63
Team Owner
Well, for beginners, I'm 6'4 and don't fit into the Miata with the top up. That's objective discomfort to me. Size can also be measured, so that too is objective. Brand reputation... completely measurable, hence: you guessed it, objective! German engineering... it's either German or Japanese or whatever engineering - that too can be objectively determined. History... hmm... what do you think? Can we count years? How about the price tag? Numbers? Objectively comparable? First-graders and up would think so. Now, how about masculinity... remember the male vs. female index study (http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/funonw...ars/index.html)... the Porsche 911 is the most masculine car in the world! Yupp, objectively measured! (And dont' worry, the Miata did not make the female ranking.) 
So, if anything, it's "objective crap"!
P.S.: By the way, I don't just "seriously think", I actually SERIOUSLY KNOW that price tag and brand/user associations are reasons to buy a car. It's part of my job to know that "crap".
So, if anything, it's "objective crap"!
P.S.: By the way, I don't just "seriously think", I actually SERIOUSLY KNOW that price tag and brand/user associations are reasons to buy a car. It's part of my job to know that "crap".
Size: I actually prefer driving smaller cars. I'm 72.5" tall, 200 lbs., and the Miata fits me like a glove. Driver's seat is one notch from the last.
Comfort: See above. I don't use the car for long Interstate trips, but that's not what it was designed for. Hell, I usually take the Infiniti.
Reputation: Mazda has a perfectly good reputation for building quality cars that lean to the sporty side. OTOH, Porsche has a reputation for building water-cooled cars that blow up.
Wow factor: Means nothing to me. Only my closest friends and family even know that I own a Porsche. Didn't buy it to impress people.
German engineering: Means very little to me. Even Bimmer magazine called the Miata a better car when the Z3 1.9 was introduced. I'm more concerned about QUALITY engineering than where it was actually done. Go drive a Miata back-to-back with a New Beetle and get back to me.
Desirability: I already own both cars, so one isn't any more desirable than the other.
History: Means nothing. A marque could have the best history and I still wouldn't buy one if I didn't like the way it drove. See "Cadillac"...
Looks: Entirely subjective. I like the way all of my cars look.
Brand equity: I buy 'em to drive, not 'cause of the badge.
Masculinity: The Miata has a higher percentage of male buyers than the Ford Mustang--that's good enough for me. Do some people call me gay for owning a Miata? Yes, and that's how I know who the idiots are.
Price tag: Miata wins, hands down. I could have three of them for what I paid for my Porsche.
Driver associations: Don't know what you're getting at here...
Rear seats: The reason I bought my 996. Second choice was going to be a Mazda RX-8.
Novelty: The Miata feels more like a go-kart/toy car. I like that.
08-23-2008, 03:12 PM
#64
Team Owner
08-23-2008, 03:35 PM
#65
Banned
I'm sure an early Miata with the top down is way more fun to drive than my hard-top Mini, which has the driver sitting up higher than in the lower to the ground Miata.
I bet they are fun to drive.
I bet they are fun to drive.
08-23-2008, 06:42 PM
#66
Team Owner
It's funny that you would say that, 'cause I've been considering adding a Mini S to the garage. You don't seem to be completely enamored with your base model, Ben, which doesn't seem to reflect the opinion of most of the owners I've met.
08-23-2008, 06:59 PM
#67
Banned
The Mini S is supercharged, as you no doubt know, and it undoubtedly makes the Mini driving experience that much more fun.
Don't get me wrong, I like my Mini especially for its high mpg, its small size - makes parking a breeze, and its relatively good looks. But I do think it's a bit underpowered in the base version, but I can't really complain 'cuz I bought it primarily as a commuter car that's easy on gas. I think if I had to order it again I would get the automatic, mainly because it has a taller overdrive gear than the 5-speed, which actually results in better gas mileage going 80 mph for long stretches of highway such as my daily commute in the mornings, not to mention the constant clutch-in/clutch-out while driving in stop-n-go traffic on the afternoon commute home. At my last scheduled service I was able to get the automatic as a loaner for a day, and I really liked it. Oh well.
I haven't driven an S, so I'm guessing it's a lot more fun and worth getting if you're not looking just for the best gas mileage car.
Take one for a test drive and see what you think. They're designed and built by BMW - the brake calipers have BMW stamped on them - and so they're well built and likely to hold up well in the reliability category.
Here's a few pics of my Mini: https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...9&postcount=62
Don't get me wrong, I like my Mini especially for its high mpg, its small size - makes parking a breeze, and its relatively good looks. But I do think it's a bit underpowered in the base version, but I can't really complain 'cuz I bought it primarily as a commuter car that's easy on gas. I think if I had to order it again I would get the automatic, mainly because it has a taller overdrive gear than the 5-speed, which actually results in better gas mileage going 80 mph for long stretches of highway such as my daily commute in the mornings, not to mention the constant clutch-in/clutch-out while driving in stop-n-go traffic on the afternoon commute home. At my last scheduled service I was able to get the automatic as a loaner for a day, and I really liked it. Oh well.
I haven't driven an S, so I'm guessing it's a lot more fun and worth getting if you're not looking just for the best gas mileage car.
Take one for a test drive and see what you think. They're designed and built by BMW - the brake calipers have BMW stamped on them - and so they're well built and likely to hold up well in the reliability category.
Here's a few pics of my Mini: https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...9&postcount=62
08-24-2008, 12:44 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
This is an interesting thread because it gets to the heart of what we are all looking for in a sports car experience. For a daily driver that may mean a 2+2 for kids or a Tip/PDK for rush hour traffic. I drive a 25,000/year in an Audi A6 4.2, so for me, my sports car needs to deliver a greater sense of occasion for week-end use. That means a six speed and enough power to get my attention.
I have owned a MINI Cooper S, MX-5 Miata and a Lotus Elise and can assure you that when driven hard, it would be difficult to find cars that deliver more enjoyment on public roads. I have also owned a few 911s, Esprit Turbo's and a C6 Z06 and can only say that each were very satisfying for different reasons but none were as fun in such a pure way as either the Miata or the Elise.
I have also had the opportunity to drive a Lambo LP640 and a Bugatti Veyron for about 30 mimutes each and can tell you that despite the power, noises, style and attention these cars generate on public roads, their limits are so high that in some perverse way they are among the least satsifying cars to drive.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to own one of those insane cars if I hit the lottery, but until then, I am happy to drive my Carrera S knowing that it has 90% of the performance of most supercars with 90% of the practicality of most daily drivers. The Carrera S is in my opinion the best sports car on the market.
I have owned a MINI Cooper S, MX-5 Miata and a Lotus Elise and can assure you that when driven hard, it would be difficult to find cars that deliver more enjoyment on public roads. I have also owned a few 911s, Esprit Turbo's and a C6 Z06 and can only say that each were very satisfying for different reasons but none were as fun in such a pure way as either the Miata or the Elise.
I have also had the opportunity to drive a Lambo LP640 and a Bugatti Veyron for about 30 mimutes each and can tell you that despite the power, noises, style and attention these cars generate on public roads, their limits are so high that in some perverse way they are among the least satsifying cars to drive.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to own one of those insane cars if I hit the lottery, but until then, I am happy to drive my Carrera S knowing that it has 90% of the performance of most supercars with 90% of the practicality of most daily drivers. The Carrera S is in my opinion the best sports car on the market.
08-24-2008, 02:55 PM
#69
Banned
This is an interesting thread because it gets to the heart of what we are all looking for in a sports car experience. ...
I have also had the opportunity to drive a Lambo LP640 and a Bugatti Veyron for about 30 mimutes each and can tell you that despite the power, noises, style and attention these cars generate on public roads, their limits are so high that in some perverse way they are among the least satsifying cars to drive.
I have also had the opportunity to drive a Lambo LP640 and a Bugatti Veyron for about 30 mimutes each and can tell you that despite the power, noises, style and attention these cars generate on public roads, their limits are so high that in some perverse way they are among the least satsifying cars to drive.
"Among the least satisfying cars to drive."??? You must be joking, 'cuz no one's gonna believe that, not even yourself. Least satisfying to me would be something like the Chevy Aveo or Hyundai Accent or some other econo-box.
Regardless of what anyone says there is no greater raw thrill than powerful acceleration - the kind that gives you that tingly, scary feeling in the pit of your stomach and a super-sized dose of adrenaline rush.
Second in the thrill department would have to be going around curves quickly. But this thrill is tempered somewhat by the discomfort of being tossed side to side, especially if you're the passenger. But there is no such discomfort in linear acceleration - both the driver and the passenger experience the same thrill.
With a Lambo or a Veyron, the most satisfying thrill on public roads has to be going from 5 mph to 65 mph in the blink of an eye, and still be within the bounds of the law. That right there would make my day - any day. Granted, these cars are not typically daily drivers, but neither is my 997, though the 997 is a good daily driver for many here. The Z06 can also be a daily driver for those speed addicts needing an occasional fix of strong acceleration.
But as for what is considered the defining attribute of a sports car, to get more general now, I would have to say it is speed. Speed. How fast can it go is what everyone wants to know if you say you own a sports car.
08-24-2008, 08:19 PM
#70
I agree with the driving the slow car fast thing - assuming it's a fun slow car like a Miata. Kind of cool to be sliding around a light RWD well balanced car at 9/10ths on the street and still not having to go 120+mph to enjoy the car.
Driving the **** out of an econobox can sometimes be fun but certainly not option #1.
If pure speed is your measure of a car and it's entertainment value then it's time to trade in the 997 and get a GT-R or Z06. For me - it's more about how it goes about doing what it does...
A properly modded Evo could crush most 997s but I have zero desire to have one.
Driving the **** out of an econobox can sometimes be fun but certainly not option #1.
If pure speed is your measure of a car and it's entertainment value then it's time to trade in the 997 and get a GT-R or Z06. For me - it's more about how it goes about doing what it does...
A properly modded Evo could crush most 997s but I have zero desire to have one.
08-27-2008, 11:40 AM
#71
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I used to have a 1992 Miata and it was a ball to drive. Then came the wifes 2001 Z3 which was a solid handler and confidence inspiring but spent a lot of time at the dealer. Next I got a 2001 certified Boxster base which reminded me of the Miata because of the feedback and great engine noises. Its handling was perfect and well balanced, very easy to push to its limits. The Boxster never spent a day at the dealer so I figured more is better and traded up for a certified 2006 C2S. What a mistake that has been: so far It has been thru two batteries, a clutch, broken shift linkage, transmission replacement, wiring harness, and other minor issues. Now I am seriously leaning towards going back to a Miata or a Boxster. The 911 is an awesome car but for ME it is just not a fun ownership experience.
08-27-2008, 12:21 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Sorry not to have read all 5 pages, but I read the OP and can totally understand. I had a Boxster S and found it to be almost boring it was so good on the street. One of the reasons for the long term success of the 911 platform was that it was always a bit quirky, always a bit of a handful. If you worked and got it just right, it was rewarding beyond belief. Otherwise it could bite you. That level of thrill is largely erased in the newer cars. This is great for the masses, but dumbs-down what the 911 used to be about. Ah, progress.
Fwiw, this is one of the reasons I love my 964 Cup. It is, by modern standards, a nightmare. Corner entry understeer, mid corner oversteer, corner exit oversteer. It is a constant battle. But piloting it around faster than race-prepped GT3s? Priceless, as they say.
Fwiw, this is one of the reasons I love my 964 Cup. It is, by modern standards, a nightmare. Corner entry understeer, mid corner oversteer, corner exit oversteer. It is a constant battle. But piloting it around faster than race-prepped GT3s? Priceless, as they say.
08-27-2008, 07:46 PM
#73
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Great thread. The general theme has existed for ages: That newer, heavier, faster, safer, easier sports cars occasionally seem to lose the fun-factor. In a sedan or family car, that's not the end of the world, but in a sports car, if it's no longer fun then it's pointless. And by pointless I mean worthless.
Dr. Porsche was right when he answered an interviewer's question about the apparently bleak future for sports cars during the 1970's oil crisis by saying: "The last automobile ever made will be a sports car." This is true because even after all automobiles' utility has been replaced by somethign else, there will still be enthusiasts who like to drive for purely recreational purposes.
By the same token, the first sports car to lose market-share in a down market ought to be the one that is least fun to drive... regardless if how fast it is. I drove 997s (3.8 and 3.6) and bought a Cayman S instead. It's slower in a straight line, but was more fun overall (to me). If I had needed little back seats at the time obviously I would have made a different choice.
I think among sports car manufacturers, Porsche still does the (or almost the) best job of balancing the demands of the market (e.g. performance #'s, technology, safety, noise limits, environmental harm, etc) against the desire/need to keep their new cars "fun." But we enthusiasts have the luxury of choosing between their latest new products and the older, less advanced (but perhaps more fun) products. Since "fun" is subjective and cannot be measured by road-test magazines (massive respect to EVO & Excellence for trying every month) it's really up to you to find the right compromise for your situation. Unfortunately, that means you have to personally drive as many model-years and set-ups as you can.
I have been a P-car owner and PCA instructor for a long time. But I was still shocked recently when I drove a friend's basic '99 996 C2 coupe on coil-overs at the track. It was the most fun I've had in a long time... and fast too! Credit to the light weight and stiff suspension. Who cares that it's not as pretty as a 997, 993 or Cayman..... if it's more fun to drive, it wins my vote and my $. My Cayman S is for sale. If money were no object, I guess I could strip the weight out of a new car and restore some of the "fun" but cost is a big deal when you are talking about destroying the resale value of a $70k-$90k new car vs. a $29k used car.
Bottom line for the OP, if a sports car doesn't make you laugh out loud with joy occasionally, you're in the wrong car (for you). Enjoy your search!
Dr. Porsche was right when he answered an interviewer's question about the apparently bleak future for sports cars during the 1970's oil crisis by saying: "The last automobile ever made will be a sports car." This is true because even after all automobiles' utility has been replaced by somethign else, there will still be enthusiasts who like to drive for purely recreational purposes.
By the same token, the first sports car to lose market-share in a down market ought to be the one that is least fun to drive... regardless if how fast it is. I drove 997s (3.8 and 3.6) and bought a Cayman S instead. It's slower in a straight line, but was more fun overall (to me). If I had needed little back seats at the time obviously I would have made a different choice.
I think among sports car manufacturers, Porsche still does the (or almost the) best job of balancing the demands of the market (e.g. performance #'s, technology, safety, noise limits, environmental harm, etc) against the desire/need to keep their new cars "fun." But we enthusiasts have the luxury of choosing between their latest new products and the older, less advanced (but perhaps more fun) products. Since "fun" is subjective and cannot be measured by road-test magazines (massive respect to EVO & Excellence for trying every month) it's really up to you to find the right compromise for your situation. Unfortunately, that means you have to personally drive as many model-years and set-ups as you can.
I have been a P-car owner and PCA instructor for a long time. But I was still shocked recently when I drove a friend's basic '99 996 C2 coupe on coil-overs at the track. It was the most fun I've had in a long time... and fast too! Credit to the light weight and stiff suspension. Who cares that it's not as pretty as a 997, 993 or Cayman..... if it's more fun to drive, it wins my vote and my $. My Cayman S is for sale. If money were no object, I guess I could strip the weight out of a new car and restore some of the "fun" but cost is a big deal when you are talking about destroying the resale value of a $70k-$90k new car vs. a $29k used car.
Bottom line for the OP, if a sports car doesn't make you laugh out loud with joy occasionally, you're in the wrong car (for you). Enjoy your search!
08-27-2008, 08:15 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Great thread. The general theme has existed for ages: That newer, heavier, faster, safer, easier sports cars occasionally seem to lose the fun-factor. In a sedan or family car, that's not the end of the world, but in a sports car, if it's no longer fun then it's pointless. And by pointless I mean worthless.
Dr. Porsche was right when he answered an interviewer's question about the apparently bleak future for sports cars during the 1970's oil crisis by saying: "The last automobile ever made will be a sports car." This is true because even after all automobiles' utility has been replaced by somethign else, there will still be enthusiasts who like to drive for purely recreational purposes.
By the same token, the first sports car to lose market-share in a down market ought to be the one that is least fun to drive... regardless if how fast it is. I drove 997s (3.8 and 3.6) and bought a Cayman S instead. It's slower in a straight line, but was more fun overall (to me). If I had needed little back seats at the time obviously I would have made a different choice.
I think among sports car manufacturers, Porsche still does the (or almost the) best job of balancing the demands of the market (e.g. performance #'s, technology, safety, noise limits, environmental harm, etc) against the desire/need to keep their new cars "fun." But we enthusiasts have the luxury of choosing between their latest new products and the older, less advanced (but perhaps more fun) products. Since "fun" is subjective and cannot be measured by road-test magazines (massive respect to EVO & Excellence for trying every month) it's really up to you to find the right compromise for your situation. Unfortunately, that means you have to personally drive as many model-years and set-ups as you can.
I have been a P-car owner and PCA instructor for a long time. But I was still shocked recently when I drove a friend's basic '99 996 C2 coupe on coil-overs at the track. It was the most fun I've had in a long time... and fast too! Credit to the light weight and stiff suspension. Who cares that it's not as pretty as a 997, 993 or Cayman..... if it's more fun to drive, it wins my vote and my $. My Cayman S is for sale. If money were no object, I guess I could strip the weight out of a new car and restore some of the "fun" but cost is a big deal when you are talking about destroying the resale value of a $70k-$90k new car vs. a $29k used car.
Bottom line for the OP, if a sports car doesn't make you laugh out loud with joy occasionally, you're in the wrong car (for you). Enjoy your search!
Dr. Porsche was right when he answered an interviewer's question about the apparently bleak future for sports cars during the 1970's oil crisis by saying: "The last automobile ever made will be a sports car." This is true because even after all automobiles' utility has been replaced by somethign else, there will still be enthusiasts who like to drive for purely recreational purposes.
By the same token, the first sports car to lose market-share in a down market ought to be the one that is least fun to drive... regardless if how fast it is. I drove 997s (3.8 and 3.6) and bought a Cayman S instead. It's slower in a straight line, but was more fun overall (to me). If I had needed little back seats at the time obviously I would have made a different choice.
I think among sports car manufacturers, Porsche still does the (or almost the) best job of balancing the demands of the market (e.g. performance #'s, technology, safety, noise limits, environmental harm, etc) against the desire/need to keep their new cars "fun." But we enthusiasts have the luxury of choosing between their latest new products and the older, less advanced (but perhaps more fun) products. Since "fun" is subjective and cannot be measured by road-test magazines (massive respect to EVO & Excellence for trying every month) it's really up to you to find the right compromise for your situation. Unfortunately, that means you have to personally drive as many model-years and set-ups as you can.
I have been a P-car owner and PCA instructor for a long time. But I was still shocked recently when I drove a friend's basic '99 996 C2 coupe on coil-overs at the track. It was the most fun I've had in a long time... and fast too! Credit to the light weight and stiff suspension. Who cares that it's not as pretty as a 997, 993 or Cayman..... if it's more fun to drive, it wins my vote and my $. My Cayman S is for sale. If money were no object, I guess I could strip the weight out of a new car and restore some of the "fun" but cost is a big deal when you are talking about destroying the resale value of a $70k-$90k new car vs. a $29k used car.
Bottom line for the OP, if a sports car doesn't make you laugh out loud with joy occasionally, you're in the wrong car (for you). Enjoy your search!
Now, amidst a lot of good posts, THAT'S a great post.
Want a job?
pete
08-27-2008, 09:03 PM
#75
Race Director
Want raw charisma in a water cooled 911?
Pick up a used 996 GT3. Performance bargain full of personality.
It's limits are high sure but the engine screams, it's rough and handles beautifully.
Pick up a used 996 GT3. Performance bargain full of personality.
It's limits are high sure but the engine screams, it's rough and handles beautifully.