Is the 911 underpowered?
03-30-2008, 04:52 PM
#61
Burning Brakes
Todays cars no longer just meet California Emissions....
Pretty much every car manufacturer is going to have to face the realities of emissions regulations tightening. If you want to sell in Kalyfornjah you will have to meet new more stringent emissions regs.
Making engines with bigger capacity is not going to work, so how do you maintain performance whilst drastically cutting emissions? More efficient engines, lower weight engine materials, low pressure turbo's, low friction internals, brake regeneration, engine stop-start systems. There's also no reason why the 911 can't have a hybrid system - just don't expect a trunk!
Low weight materials will cost more, but if the fat n' flabbies want their grande latte mocha cupholders and ventilated massaging electric seats then they will have to pay more for them.
The new marketplace will be where regulations meets money and how much you want what you have today.
Making engines with bigger capacity is not going to work, so how do you maintain performance whilst drastically cutting emissions? More efficient engines, lower weight engine materials, low pressure turbo's, low friction internals, brake regeneration, engine stop-start systems. There's also no reason why the 911 can't have a hybrid system - just don't expect a trunk!
Low weight materials will cost more, but if the fat n' flabbies want their grande latte mocha cupholders and ventilated massaging electric seats then they will have to pay more for them.
The new marketplace will be where regulations meets money and how much you want what you have today.
You no longer have California cars vs the rest of the USA. All cars that are sold in the USA meet California Emissions (with rare exceptions). So, in the future the likelyhood is going to be that all sports cars in the USA will be castrated by California Emissions.
abe
03-30-2008, 05:04 PM
#62
With oil production now past it's peak, I can't see how we can go on with the HP race.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory
I don't think that the Porsche is underpowered, but rather that there are too many cars with too much HP. More HP = less MPG.
Sooner or later, the government is going to be pressured into increasing the MPG that cars get, that combined with the "safety advocates" who decree that 180 mph automobiles are no longer appropriate will legislate them out of existence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory
I don't think that the Porsche is underpowered, but rather that there are too many cars with too much HP. More HP = less MPG.
Sooner or later, the government is going to be pressured into increasing the MPG that cars get, that combined with the "safety advocates" who decree that 180 mph automobiles are no longer appropriate will legislate them out of existence.
03-30-2008, 05:09 PM
#63
The X51 C4S that I had was not underpowered at sea level. In fact, it felt down right "super car"-ish.
I don't need a more powerful Porsche, I just need to move to the coastal plains again.
I don't need a more powerful Porsche, I just need to move to the coastal plains again.
03-30-2008, 05:41 PM
#64
I didn't say I disbelieve the stats, I said I had a hard time believing it and proceeded to explain why. I haven't checked those numbers and I'm taking the post which claims that is so at face value. I understand that you're saying if the M3 stops quicker it's not because the 911's brakes are inadequate, in fact that was the whole point of my previous post.
03-30-2008, 08:06 PM
#65
Drifting
Pretty much every car manufacturer is going to have to face the realities of emissions regulations tightening. If you want to sell in Kalyfornjah you will have to meet new more stringent emissions regs.
Making engines with bigger capacity is not going to work, so how do you maintain performance whilst drastically cutting emissions? More efficient engines, lower weight engine materials, low pressure turbo's, low friction internals, brake regeneration, engine stop-start systems. There's also no reason why the 911 can't have a hybrid system - just don't expect a trunk!
Low weight materials will cost more, but if the fat n' flabbies want their grande latte mocha cupholders and ventilated massaging electric seats then they will have to pay more for them.
The new marketplace will be where regulations meets money and how much you want what you have today.
Making engines with bigger capacity is not going to work, so how do you maintain performance whilst drastically cutting emissions? More efficient engines, lower weight engine materials, low pressure turbo's, low friction internals, brake regeneration, engine stop-start systems. There's also no reason why the 911 can't have a hybrid system - just don't expect a trunk!
Low weight materials will cost more, but if the fat n' flabbies want their grande latte mocha cupholders and ventilated massaging electric seats then they will have to pay more for them.
The new marketplace will be where regulations meets money and how much you want what you have today.
But its true, the global warming nonsense is going to mean the end of the sports car, at least with respect to the gasoline power plant. Lower weight is the only way sports cars will evolve.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the best gasoline powered sports cars and full sized luxury cars that will EVER be produced in history, are being produced right now. 5 years from now, the decline begins as government regulation ramps up.
03-30-2008, 09:17 PM
#66
What really made me start this thread is that I believe that with Porsche's and the 911s heritage, the 911 should be the performance benchmark in it's class and I'm not so sure it is any more. There clearly is not an easy way to just say outright that it is better than a E92 M3 or sad to say a Corvette in overall performance. Most discussions go down to, well if we go to the track ....
So by your statement I could conclude that you believed the 911 was at one time the performance standard, but it isn't any longer. When did you believe the 911 was the performance standard? I bought my first 911 in 1969 and it had about half the HP of a 427 ci Vette owned by a coworker of mine. The Vette was a torque monster and it cost a lot less than the 911, but the 911 was a far superior car to the Vette IMO.
So by your statement I could conclude that you believed the 911 was at one time the performance standard, but it isn't any longer. When did you believe the 911 was the performance standard? I bought my first 911 in 1969 and it had about half the HP of a 427 ci Vette owned by a coworker of mine. The Vette was a torque monster and it cost a lot less than the 911, but the 911 was a far superior car to the Vette IMO.
03-30-2008, 11:47 PM
#67
Three Wheelin'
Define the 911's class
If I had wanted a dragster I would have bought a Viper.
03-31-2008, 09:50 AM
#68
Considering what I just did to my car (though it is because of what else I drive), I could not agree more what edgy just said.
QUOTE=Edgy01;5258903]As a long time owner of Porsches (since the early 1970s) I think you're absolutely wrong. There is plenty of HP in the Carrera. What is lacking is the driving skills of the majority of drivers out there. Until you can prove yourself in a 200 HP car what's the point of giving you twice that? You'll just kill yourself earlier/quicker.[/QUOTE]
QUOTE=Edgy01;5258903]As a long time owner of Porsches (since the early 1970s) I think you're absolutely wrong. There is plenty of HP in the Carrera. What is lacking is the driving skills of the majority of drivers out there. Until you can prove yourself in a 200 HP car what's the point of giving you twice that? You'll just kill yourself earlier/quicker.[/QUOTE]
03-31-2008, 11:49 AM
#69
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I've chased a C2S around a track in an Audi RS6 and I was amazed that the C2S could not shake me. Well, for the first 10 minutes. After that, I had some serious "heat management" issues with my tires and brakes that I had no choice but to back off. The C2S? He was able to run as fast in minute #5 as in minute #20 in the session. My brakes were so hot that I could hear them pinging while I was still on the track, and they didn't stop for at least another 45 minutes back in the paddock.
Peak speed and braking are great, but there is something to be said about *consistently* achieving these numbers over and over again. I love my C4S and I think it has the perfect balance. If I needed more power, then I'd get the Turbo.
This all being said, my wife, who has never been to the track, unsolicitedly told me yesterday that she thinks the C4S is underpowered and that my Audi RS6 was faster. I was shocked, and I immediately thought about this thread. She's not a "car person" at all, but that was her observation.
One final note about the wife too. In one week of ownership of this C4S, she has already picked up the keys more times than she did in three years of RS6 ownership. Though it might be "underpowered" to her, she obviously loves it.
Peak speed and braking are great, but there is something to be said about *consistently* achieving these numbers over and over again. I love my C4S and I think it has the perfect balance. If I needed more power, then I'd get the Turbo.
This all being said, my wife, who has never been to the track, unsolicitedly told me yesterday that she thinks the C4S is underpowered and that my Audi RS6 was faster. I was shocked, and I immediately thought about this thread. She's not a "car person" at all, but that was her observation.
One final note about the wife too. In one week of ownership of this C4S, she has already picked up the keys more times than she did in three years of RS6 ownership. Though it might be "underpowered" to her, she obviously loves it.
03-31-2008, 12:59 PM
#70
Instructor
Thread Starter
In the early 90s, I thought the 964 was worth of being called a "benchmark car."
Same goes for the 993 and 996 at their respective times. 993 was around in the time of the E36 M3 (US form 240 hp) and 996 was around at the time of the E46 M3. I honestly felt that the 996 was a better car, which is why I bought one. It was slightly less powerful, but made up for it in different ways. Corvette at that time I think was 350hp, but the perfiormance differential wasn't huge and I still felt the 996 was a better car.
However, here's where things started to change - in my opinion the 996 to 997 jump was not as big as it could have been.
Back in 1990 a car like a corvette was much different from a Porsche. Today, they are still different cars but the delta is not as huge. The 2008 corvette has a relatively nice interior, is quick, fun to drive and though it's not my cup of tea, I certainly wouldn't be ashamed to be driving one. Don't know how they are on a track, but I suspect with a decent suspension they do okay.
One more point I'd like to add, I noticed a few responses that said something to the effect of "if you want to drag race, get a corvette." I DON'T drag race, but probably like most other folks here I enjoy the rush of getting on an on-ramp or the occaisonal quick burst of speed when passing a slower car. Not saying the 911 is inadequate in this respect, but a little more hp/tq wouldn't hurt.
... And I don't think every discussion should resort to "try driving one on a track" or "try running at WOT on a track." Most owners don't track their cars, but most do get on and off an on-ramp every day.
In my experience with Product Development and Marketing, good companies in general try to cater to their customers needs. If the typical 911 purchaser is satisfied with the cars power as is (which is totally fine), you will only see small incremental increases in hp/tq.
Many people here will be repeat 911 customers. If the rest of the 911 competition takes a 20% jump in the next model generation and Porshe makes the 998, 5% better would you be happy?
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
Same goes for the 993 and 996 at their respective times. 993 was around in the time of the E36 M3 (US form 240 hp) and 996 was around at the time of the E46 M3. I honestly felt that the 996 was a better car, which is why I bought one. It was slightly less powerful, but made up for it in different ways. Corvette at that time I think was 350hp, but the perfiormance differential wasn't huge and I still felt the 996 was a better car.
However, here's where things started to change - in my opinion the 996 to 997 jump was not as big as it could have been.
Back in 1990 a car like a corvette was much different from a Porsche. Today, they are still different cars but the delta is not as huge. The 2008 corvette has a relatively nice interior, is quick, fun to drive and though it's not my cup of tea, I certainly wouldn't be ashamed to be driving one. Don't know how they are on a track, but I suspect with a decent suspension they do okay.
One more point I'd like to add, I noticed a few responses that said something to the effect of "if you want to drag race, get a corvette." I DON'T drag race, but probably like most other folks here I enjoy the rush of getting on an on-ramp or the occaisonal quick burst of speed when passing a slower car. Not saying the 911 is inadequate in this respect, but a little more hp/tq wouldn't hurt.
... And I don't think every discussion should resort to "try driving one on a track" or "try running at WOT on a track." Most owners don't track their cars, but most do get on and off an on-ramp every day.
In my experience with Product Development and Marketing, good companies in general try to cater to their customers needs. If the typical 911 purchaser is satisfied with the cars power as is (which is totally fine), you will only see small incremental increases in hp/tq.
Many people here will be repeat 911 customers. If the rest of the 911 competition takes a 20% jump in the next model generation and Porshe makes the 998, 5% better would you be happy?
To use a Ferrari analogy again, if the 348 to 355 was a small incremental jump I don't think Ferrari would be doing so well today. Looking at their competition, Ferrari realized they needed to step up their game and really made significant changes after the 348. Porsche is in a different market segment, but I think the analogy with competition holds true.
What really made me start this thread is that I believe that with Porsche's and the 911s heritage, the 911 should be the performance benchmark in it's class and I'm not so sure it is any more. There clearly is not an easy way to just say outright that it is better than a E92 M3 or sad to say a Corvette in overall performance. Most discussions go down to, well if we go to the track ....
So by your statement I could conclude that you believed the 911 was at one time the performance standard, but it isn't any longer. When did you believe the 911 was the performance standard? I bought my first 911 in 1969 and it had about half the HP of a 427 ci Vette owned by a coworker of mine. The Vette was a torque monster and it cost a lot less than the 911, but the 911 was a far superior car to the Vette IMO.
So by your statement I could conclude that you believed the 911 was at one time the performance standard, but it isn't any longer. When did you believe the 911 was the performance standard? I bought my first 911 in 1969 and it had about half the HP of a 427 ci Vette owned by a coworker of mine. The Vette was a torque monster and it cost a lot less than the 911, but the 911 was a far superior car to the Vette IMO.
Last edited by newton982; 03-31-2008 at 04:00 PM.
03-31-2008, 01:28 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
I can only hope we're this lucky. Maybe it's just me, but a "weight war" would be the best possible thing that can happen to sports cars at this point. I'm sick of the dumb "horsepower wars" that threaten to turn all my favorite cars into fat-*** drag racers that can't corner well at all*.
I don't want a 400hp 911, I want a 2900lb 911.
* some hyperbole may be employed here.
I don't want a 400hp 911, I want a 2900lb 911.
* some hyperbole may be employed here.
03-31-2008, 01:32 PM
#72
Back in the 1970's and 1980's Porsche was dominating many races and was eventually legislated out of some of them to create some car diversity on the track. Some of the advantages of the 911 vs. the Corvette or Camaro in those days were the superior brakes (combined with the rear weight bias to enhance braking performace), lower fuel consumption, better traction and perhaps better reliablity. Today, I believe Porsche is having a more challenging time on the tracks because the other brands simply have gotten so good. In addition, the 911 alway seems to out-peform its spec sheet ( HP, etc.) but if on a faster track ( fewer curves, etc.) the cars with the "really big hp" seem to have more of an advantage. I remember it was common for Corvettes and 911s to neck and neck during a race until athe Vettes broke down.
03-31-2008, 02:11 PM
#73
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The Z06 Corvette will outhandle, outbreak and run circles around a 997S. Dont know who gave some of you guys the idea that it would only be a worthy drag race machine, that is simply not true. And it will make a great daily driver as well. Either way, I prefer a 997S due to its refinement but I would hope it would be more competitive in a track where even though I might not find use for right now but i would eventually want to build my skills to a higher level without having to spend and extra 40g on a more capable model and not get embarrassed by a bone stock Z06.
03-31-2008, 02:55 PM
#74
Three Wheelin'
03-31-2008, 03:47 PM
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The Z06 Corvette will outhandle, outbreak and run circles around a 997S. Dont know who gave some of you guys the idea that it would only be a worthy drag race machine, that is simply not true. And it will make a great daily driver as well. Either way, I prefer a 997S due to its refinement but I would hope it would be more competitive in a track where even though I might not find use for right now but i would eventually want to build my skills to a higher level without having to spend and extra 40g on a more capable model and not get embarrassed by a bone stock Z06.
1) They are definitely cheaper to buy and own
2) They are definitely faster
3) You will DIE if you take any corners at speed or try to drive it in the winter
I traded it for my 997 C4 Cab + winter wheel/tire set + hardtop and I arrive ALIVE.
Damon