Opinions wanted on champion f77 package
03-01-2007, 12:36 AM
#17
I have the tubi exhaust and headers installed in my car (it was done by Champion Motorsport). I have not dynoed the car, but I do feel the difference in power, torque and most definitely sound. Some of you tend to say that the car feels faster or more powerful but it's only that, the feeling. My humble oppinion is that there are power gains, but I can not tell you if it is 10, 20 or 30 hp. Having said all these, from an economic perspective I would never recommend this route, it's just a personal decission based on the pleasure that we get making our car unique (personally, only if the upgrades or mods come from a reputable source). The good thing about exhaust and headers is that the changes are easily reversible. There is also the benefit of the weight savings, particularly in the rear heavy 911.
03-01-2007, 12:38 AM
#18
I have the tubi exhaust and headers installed in my car (it was done by Champion Motorsport). I have not dynoed the car, but I do feel the difference in power, torque and most definitely sound. Some of you tend to say that the car feels faster or more powerful but it's only that, the feeling. My humble opinion is that there are power gains, but I can not tell you if it is 10, 20 or 30 hp. Having said all these, from an economic perspective I would never recommend this route, it's just a personal decision based on the pleasure that we get making our car unique (personally, only if the upgrades or mods come from a reputable source). The good thing about exhaust and headers is that the changes are easily reversible. There is also the benefit of the weight savings, particularly in the rear heavy 911.
03-01-2007, 01:28 AM
#19
All I know is the GrandAM guys are using the stuff..and they wouldn't use it unless it worked. My own experiences with the 997 are very limited, although I did see one put down over 330rwhp with a full Fabspeed setup on a DTS dyno, which is between a Dynojet and Mustang as far as conservative numbers. My M3 on this dyno with the full exhaust and such did 310rwhp, so this sounds about right for the 997S. The day my M3 did 310 rwhp there were several stock M3's dynoing in the high 260-low 270 range.
The problem is with the software...Mustang guys have got it made. They have hand held tuners that can tune the car on the fly on a chassis dyno. They take it to the track with the a wideband 02 analyzer hooked up to the pipes and give it a go. They then fine tune it even more..
Unfortunately BMW and PCar guys are stuck with generic software (GIAC etc) that was tuned on someone elses car.
The best thing to do if you get a exhaust setup, is get it dyno'd with a wideband 02 analyzer and see what your A/F ratios look like, send this info to a custom tuner who will then burn and change maps to accomodate your particular needs.
Trouble is..does anyone do this for the 997??
Dave
The problem is with the software...Mustang guys have got it made. They have hand held tuners that can tune the car on the fly on a chassis dyno. They take it to the track with the a wideband 02 analyzer hooked up to the pipes and give it a go. They then fine tune it even more..
Unfortunately BMW and PCar guys are stuck with generic software (GIAC etc) that was tuned on someone elses car.
The best thing to do if you get a exhaust setup, is get it dyno'd with a wideband 02 analyzer and see what your A/F ratios look like, send this info to a custom tuner who will then burn and change maps to accomodate your particular needs.
Trouble is..does anyone do this for the 997??
Dave
03-01-2007, 07:09 AM
#20
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Porsche has wide band O2 sensors already there. I used a Harris OBD2 reader to
read the A/F ratios as well as other parameters (air flow passing the MAF sensor for one)
during tuning. Took a couple of software changes (996 turbo) to get the correct setup for my system, but the data I provided made all of the difference.
Harris R&D
read the A/F ratios as well as other parameters (air flow passing the MAF sensor for one)
during tuning. Took a couple of software changes (996 turbo) to get the correct setup for my system, but the data I provided made all of the difference.
Harris R&D
03-01-2007, 12:13 PM
#21
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Just got off the phone with the dealer....damn my rear end is sore! 8800$ for tubi ,headers and airbox.This is the most expensive toy Ive ever owned.Im gonna wait and see about other options before pulling trigger on this.
03-01-2007, 12:20 PM
#22
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I you aren't in a hurry you might find a deal. I got AWE headers, cats and exhaust for $2,800 delivered. They were put on a car and taken off 3 weeks later (guy's wife changed her mind on a 997 - went with a Cayenne). Some companies offer up to a 15% discount for RennList / PCA members on new product too. Labor quote is 2.5 hours @ $85 = $212.50.
That airbox is trick, but big bucks... I got a quote at one point for the OEM X51 including install for about $2,700. That's a nice combination - AWE and X51 (oem look, higher flow, etc.).
That airbox is trick, but big bucks... I got a quote at one point for the OEM X51 including install for about $2,700. That's a nice combination - AWE and X51 (oem look, higher flow, etc.).
03-01-2007, 12:24 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by RonCT
Of course people can be dishonest and skew results - it happens every day in every field. But what about my original question about science and fact? Are you really meaning to say that companies like AWE, Fabspeed, Tubi and all others that have done their engineering, testing, refining, and then provided apples to apples dyno runs on the same day but 2 hours later (the time to install) showing relatively equivalent gains are defrauding us all?
As we know, part of the way Porsche gets more output from say the GT3 engine has to do with header tube diameter, exhaust tube diameter, exhaust flow, intake, etc. Yes internals and software are involved, but the items we are debating are responsible for a large portion of the gain. So why is it so hard to believe in the claims of all companies that produce headers, cats, exhausts for the aftermarket (including Porsche with the X51 header)?
We know Porsche developed a better header for the X51 - larger tubing for the 3.8l engine vs. the old header which was the same for both 3.6 and 3.8 liter engine. Of course they charged dearly for the R&D. Your argument would mean that there is zero difference between the stock 997 / 997s header and the X51 header. They are not equal, the X51 header provides more performance.
Also, why would racers bother with high-performance headers, 100 cell racing cats, and freer flowing exhausts if they did nothing?
I'm not an engineer, but I understand the logic of why these systems provide performance boosts. I'm honestly trying to find out why those who say that OEM (Porsche for the X51 header and GT3 headers/exhaust) and all tuners (AWE, Fabspeed, Tubi, etc.) are frauds? I've not heard a single technical / factual demonstration of why you think so, just the same rhetoric.
As we know, part of the way Porsche gets more output from say the GT3 engine has to do with header tube diameter, exhaust tube diameter, exhaust flow, intake, etc. Yes internals and software are involved, but the items we are debating are responsible for a large portion of the gain. So why is it so hard to believe in the claims of all companies that produce headers, cats, exhausts for the aftermarket (including Porsche with the X51 header)?
We know Porsche developed a better header for the X51 - larger tubing for the 3.8l engine vs. the old header which was the same for both 3.6 and 3.8 liter engine. Of course they charged dearly for the R&D. Your argument would mean that there is zero difference between the stock 997 / 997s header and the X51 header. They are not equal, the X51 header provides more performance.
Also, why would racers bother with high-performance headers, 100 cell racing cats, and freer flowing exhausts if they did nothing?
I'm not an engineer, but I understand the logic of why these systems provide performance boosts. I'm honestly trying to find out why those who say that OEM (Porsche for the X51 header and GT3 headers/exhaust) and all tuners (AWE, Fabspeed, Tubi, etc.) are frauds? I've not heard a single technical / factual demonstration of why you think so, just the same rhetoric.
I think you missed the point. Manufacturers have to certify that their enhancements will survive like the car, and comply with emissions and other regulations (safety, etc.). Aftermarket tuners do not. I don't consider the X51 an aftermarket job. It is typically Porsche,--very robust,--and that always comes at a price. Racers can do practically anything they want in so far as they comply with the rules that govern their racing class. It is nothing like certification for street use.
The aftermarket guys are making investment in this stuff as it is their interest to do so,--but what sort of warranty does it imply? Is it durable?
03-01-2007, 12:42 PM
#24
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Good points. I know with my M3's Borla, it was very well built and came with a "million mile" warranty. I owned it for 3 years and my expectation was it would last longer than the car. The warranty transferred to the new owner. The AWE I now own came with a lifetime warranty, where if anything goes wrong I will receive a replacement at no cost. Of course, this only works if the company is still around... But companies like Borla, AWE, and Tubi have been.
When I think about this further, I get the feeling from examining both stock and AWE that the AWE is built beefier than stock. The connection point from header to cat for example in the stock header is "rolled" steel, where with the AWE it's solid. The design is day and night. Stock looks to be assorted pieces (cast and tube). The AWE (and others) on the other hand appear more "engineered" with equal length pipes (F1 collector style). The welds are fantastic, the materials top-notch. Attached photo - apologies for not remembering who to credit if it's your shot, let me know
I share your concern with some tuner products, but I think at some point there are those that float to the top, that have been around for a very long time and are respected by not only the public but the manufacturers. Borla, Tubi, AWE, etc. I think are in a category where they can be trusted and are backed up by quality and warranty.
When I think about this further, I get the feeling from examining both stock and AWE that the AWE is built beefier than stock. The connection point from header to cat for example in the stock header is "rolled" steel, where with the AWE it's solid. The design is day and night. Stock looks to be assorted pieces (cast and tube). The AWE (and others) on the other hand appear more "engineered" with equal length pipes (F1 collector style). The welds are fantastic, the materials top-notch. Attached photo - apologies for not remembering who to credit if it's your shot, let me know
I share your concern with some tuner products, but I think at some point there are those that float to the top, that have been around for a very long time and are respected by not only the public but the manufacturers. Borla, Tubi, AWE, etc. I think are in a category where they can be trusted and are backed up by quality and warranty.
03-01-2007, 02:15 PM
#25
Originally Posted by jhbrennan
You can ask all day long but no one will ever give you a money back guarantee on performance increase "promises".
With all due respect, any good company will offer that.
We do and have done so for years.
I understand that there will always be skeptics. In fact, I look forward to those that question our claims. It gives me the opportunity to get on my soapbox and show the public what lengths we will go to during the R&D process of a new product.
We pride ourselves on being the company that overwhelms you with data.
It has been one of the secrets to our success over the last 16 years.
For those that don't know, we are not just a reseller of parts. We do our own machining and manufacturing in house! That is what gives us our edge.
While many of our competitors spend money on racing looking for exposure. We feel our money is better spent on further developing the engineering and manufacturing arms of the company.
What all that means is better products for you.
I will say this again. *We offer a 30 day money back guarantee if you are not satisfied.* No questions asked!
Don't forget that we also have a dyno here. I encourage everyone to take advantage of that if we are doing the work for you.
I also want to revisit a thread where we put our rep on the line. Some of the new guys may not have seen this.
We received a barrage of calls and emails thanking us for doing this test.
I believe this thread was the catalyst in really jump starting our 997 exhaust sales. Volume grew dramatically in the weeks that followed. We are still riding the wave.
I'm proud to say we did it.
See post #103.
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/276162-awe-exhaust-system-user-report.html
Fire away if anyone has questions.
Thanks for reading.
03-01-2007, 02:25 PM
#26
Mike,
When the time comes, I'll drive up there, get dyno'ed, get installed, and get dyno'ed again. That is a hard thing to beat - 30-day guarantee and I can dyno for results.
When the time comes, I'll drive up there, get dyno'ed, get installed, and get dyno'ed again. That is a hard thing to beat - 30-day guarantee and I can dyno for results.
03-01-2007, 02:26 PM
#27
Originally Posted by Edgy01
I think you missed the point. Manufacturers have to certify that their enhancements will survive like the car, and comply with emissions and other regulations (safety, etc.). Aftermarket tuners do not. I don't consider the X51 an aftermarket job. It is typically Porsche,--very robust,--and that always comes at a price. Racers can do practically anything they want in so far as they comply with the rules that govern their racing class. It is nothing like certification for street use.
The aftermarket guys are making investment in this stuff as it is their interest to do so,--but what sort of warranty does it imply? Is it durable?
The aftermarket guys are making investment in this stuff as it is their interest to do so,--but what sort of warranty does it imply? Is it durable?
My clients do not want a system that throws a CE light weeks after there system is installed. They are not looking to fail emissions tests.
I will lay it on the line. I'm a busy guy. All of us here are busy.
The last thing I/we need is someone calling up telling us they are having problems with parts failing or improper fitment.
From a simple time equals money standpoint, we have to make sure it does what we claim and does it every time!
03-01-2007, 02:28 PM
#28
Originally Posted by Chris from Cali
Mike,
When the time comes, I'll drive up there, get dyno'ed, get installed, and get dyno'ed again. That is a hard thing to beat - 30-day guarantee and I can dyno for results.
When the time comes, I'll drive up there, get dyno'ed, get installed, and get dyno'ed again. That is a hard thing to beat - 30-day guarantee and I can dyno for results.
Let us know how we can help.
03-01-2007, 02:30 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Mike/A.W.E.
jhbrennan-
With all due respect, any good company will offer that.
We do and have done so for years.
I understand that there will always be skeptics. In fact, I look forward to those that question our claims. It gives me the opportunity to get on my soapbox and show the public what lengths we will go to during the R&D process of a new product.
We pride ourselves on being the company that overwhelms you with data.
It has been one of the secrets to our success over the last 16 years.
For those that don't know, we are not just a reseller of parts. We do our own machining and manufacturing in house! That is what gives us our edge.
While many of our competitors spend money on racing looking for exposure. We feel our money is better spent on further developing the engineering and manufacturing arms of the company.
What all that means is better products for you.
I will say this again. *We offer a 30 day money back guarantee if you are not satisfied.* No questions asked!
Don't forget that we also have a dyno here. I encourage everyone to take advantage of that if we are doing the work for you.
I also want to revisit a thread where we put our rep on the line. Some of the new guys may not have seen this.
We received a barrage of calls and emails thanking us for doing this test.
I believe this thread was the catalyst in really jump starting our 997 exhaust sales. Volume grew dramatically in the weeks that followed. We are still riding the wave.
I'm proud to say we did it.
See post #103.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276162
Fire away if anyone has questions.
Thanks for reading.
With all due respect, any good company will offer that.
We do and have done so for years.
I understand that there will always be skeptics. In fact, I look forward to those that question our claims. It gives me the opportunity to get on my soapbox and show the public what lengths we will go to during the R&D process of a new product.
We pride ourselves on being the company that overwhelms you with data.
It has been one of the secrets to our success over the last 16 years.
For those that don't know, we are not just a reseller of parts. We do our own machining and manufacturing in house! That is what gives us our edge.
While many of our competitors spend money on racing looking for exposure. We feel our money is better spent on further developing the engineering and manufacturing arms of the company.
What all that means is better products for you.
I will say this again. *We offer a 30 day money back guarantee if you are not satisfied.* No questions asked!
Don't forget that we also have a dyno here. I encourage everyone to take advantage of that if we are doing the work for you.
I also want to revisit a thread where we put our rep on the line. Some of the new guys may not have seen this.
We received a barrage of calls and emails thanking us for doing this test.
I believe this thread was the catalyst in really jump starting our 997 exhaust sales. Volume grew dramatically in the weeks that followed. We are still riding the wave.
I'm proud to say we did it.
See post #103.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276162
Fire away if anyone has questions.
Thanks for reading.