yemenmocha

I've been price shopping for used 997S cabs and I'm finding a strange anomaly. Let me give some background then get to the point.

When I bought my M3, I was stunned at the prices of used M3's. Models that were 1yr old or less were listed for a couple thousand less than the MSRP of a new one, and the actual selling prices on many of them were a couple thousand below the previous price. So, if you could get $3k off a new one you were paying almost the same as the negotiated price on a slightly used one. To top things off, KBB and other online sources were fairly in correspondence with this pricing. No mysteries. Used models were selling for a few thousand less than new ones. So, I bought a new one and took delivery at the performance center. What a blast!

Switch examples now.

I'm looking at the KBB, edmunds, NADA, etc. for 05 997S cabs and I'm seeing "excellent" condition with options and with "typical" mileage valued at around low to mid $70k ish roughly. Yet I see ebay cars, cars here and on rennteam, with asking prices in the high $80's to low $90's. I also see a few posts of people being "insulted" that they were only offered $60 something for their trade-in, for a car that was $90ish when new just a mere 18 mos. ago. But, that's what the book values are, so I'm not sure why there is such a shock. And of course the CPO cars are up there in the $90's, priced at point where the new model is probably the more desirable choice if that really is the selling price of the car.

So here are my questions.
It seems as though either there is a discrepancy between the valuations and asking prices, or there is not.

If there is a discrepancy between all of the valuation tools (KBB, NADA, etc.) and actual selling prices, is it because most people (whether dealers or private party) simply have an inflated idea of what the car is worth? Are there a few lone souls who actually pay the asking prices? Or are the valuation tools completely worthless here? What's the answer? I honestly have no idea what to expect to pay for one of these cars.

Thanks
Aaron

robbonds

id say 12-15% off msrp for aPERFECT very low mile (<5k miles) 05 s

there are people here getting 7.5% off msrp for a brand new car

yemenmocha

Ok but I'm comparing ones with more average mileage, upwards of 20k miles for a car that is basically 2 years old now, so around 20-30% depreciation.

robbonds

that sounds right - for a 20k mile car...maybe 20-25%

Alan Smithee

yemenmocha, I also had an M3, and now a 997. Like the M3, these cars are in demand; the market is driving the prices, not the book values or bank residual values. Short of a salvage titled car, none are worth 30% less than MSRP. (None are two years old yet, either...first deliveries were in August 2004 as 2005 model year cars.)

I sold my M3 for 72% of its original price after four years, needing tires and a major service, with only a couple body panels having original paint. It was fanatically maintained and presented well, but hardly a perfect specimen. The Mini is an example of even more exceptional resale value.

Edit: For discussion in another thread on the forum, I checked KBB.com for 2005 997 coupe values. They're showing over $72k suggested retail for a car with 20k miles and no options...which is more than MSRP was 1.5 years ago, and in-line with prices in the Los Angeles area.

The only real way to determine value is to strike a deal with a seller, which may be tough on a Cabriolet right now, as we're only going into the 2nd sunny season since the 997 was introduced.

allegretto

Just to belabor the obvious, the Market always sets the prices, not KBB or any of that. Sometimes the market sets the price lower, and infrequently the Market says higher.

I collect vintage watches and guitars. the "KBB" of these markets always lags the real market. Just try to buy a 58-60 Les Paul or a 3450 Patek for what the "book" says. Aint gonna happen.

jeremyr4

I can help. I live in LA and just sold my '04 M3 and bought an '05 S Cab about 4 weeks ago. I was insistent on finding a California car and ended up buying a CPO car from a dealer in San Fran area. Here's the deal:

I paid $87.5 for an '05 S Cab that had an $106k MSRP + CPO w/7k miles. The math works out to $106k to $86k - 20% (they say the CPO is worth $1.5k). I still feel that this was an excellent deal for California from what I have seen. I scanned the market for months and there's a few critical items to note:

1) Most dealers are asking too much and are sitting with cars for months. There's 2 '05 Cabs (not S) sitting at Lotus of South Bay because they're overpriced. I think they've been there for 2-3 months easy. I also think they've been slightly repriced over time ($2-3k) and they're still sitting. Everyone is asking over "market" (if there is such a thing - very rare cars) and is sitting on asking prices that are too high. I make this judgment based on the fact that almost all cars I've seen at dealers just sit for months. Their theory is that they'll sell the car to someone who walks in to order a new one and finds that it's exactly what they want without a wait and at a "discount" because it's used. I suppose this might work for some but most cars sit.
2) If you're looking for a specific color then plan on likely holding out for a while. Not only are used '05 S Cabs very rare (they only made them in the second half of '05), but finding what you're looking for is even more difficult. I was looking for a Seal Gray/Black and only saw 2 in 2-3 months, 1 of which had very few options so didn't have what I was looking for. So essentially I bought the 1 car I found that "qualified" in 3 months. Turned out it was a good deal and in good shape (lucky for me)!
3) Under 10k miles, my best guess at a good deal for a car with $103-105 MSRP is $87-90 after negotiating. You'll find that most will ask $92-94k and are probably looking for $90-91k, which is too high so the car sits. I was personally happy with my $86k + $1.5k CPO. For the California market and LA in particular that seemed like a very good deal from a dealer.
4) The good news is that there are finally some used '06 cars on the market. To be honest, I'd sooner recommend an '06 for a few $k more if you can find one. You'll benefit for a newer model year for lower depreciation. Problem with '06 models is that the addition of Carrera 4 models means that it's still hard to find an S Cab...
5) I have no idea what private-party pricing is, as there is just no market for them (at least S Cabs). That's a big part of the problem - there literally is barely a "market" to go by due to low volume of cars out there...

I hope this helps. One word of caution - if you're going from an SMG to a Tiptronic, prepare to be disappointed at first. I've been adjusting for weeks and I'm starting to enjoy the transmission more than I did at first. That being said, it will never compare to an SMG and you're much less involved and connected with the car. I miss the M3 in many ways but I'm starting to like the 911 in Sport mode a lot :-)

If you've got more detailed questions + comparison to M3 questions (I owned 2 E46 M3s) then reply to this post with your e-mail and I'll contact you. I'd be glad to help if I can.

Hope this helps,
Jeremy

allegretto

Keep in mind that you can buy new discounted as well in most locations, especially if it's on the floor. That tends to diminish the 20% spread you speak of.

Likemystoppie?

KBB, Edmunds ect. aren't always the most reliable source. Many times it doesn't take into consideration the cost of CPO'ing a car, and in reality, neither KBB or Edmunds will cut you a check for your car, let alone enable you to buy 'said' car at that price. It's a barometer, but it's not perfect.

The good news is that these cars are fetching a premium, thus going right to residual values. So when you do buy a car you can bank on the fact it'll retain it's value better then anything else.

Edgy01

CPO? I don't think I know what that is.

dan

Likemystoppie?

Certified Pre-Owned. Sorry 'bout that Dan. Car lingo......

scycle2020

kbb only works for everyday , run of the mill cars like hondas and toyotas...the numbers for porsches show too much depreciation...not the real market at all....

Edgy01

You can see how often I buy a car!

Thanks.

Dan

Likemystoppie?

Or it show's that I sell them. LOL....

Likemystoppie?

Agreed.