OCBen

Thanks Jim.

That Blackfire Gloss looks like it'll provide that wet-look gloss like 3M's Imperial Hand Glaze polish. That's what I currently use for that wet-look shine. I'd like to get a bottle of that as well and compare the two, and report back on my findings.

Deanski

Ben,

3M hand glaze fills swirls and does not remove them just so you know. 3M Machine Polish or Perfect-It will remove swirls. The Blackfire will also remove and not fill.

Deanski

OCBen

Jim, I believe you are mistaken with regard to IHG. True, it's not a swirl remover, but it's a very fine high gloss polish, which contains no silicones or fillers of any kind, according to their specs:

Autopia also provides additional information on the product.

One distinctive aspect of a pure polish is that it leaves the surface squeaky clean. And that's how IHG leaves the paintwork. A swirlmark filler like Klasse HGSG will not.

rmklaw

Has anyone tried the de-ionizer water system from http://crspotless.com/index/3/ ?

They claim that you do not need to dry the car and it leaves it spottless.

OCBen

Somebody here tried something similar:

https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...9&postcount=51

Deanski

You have it backwards:

Actually, 3M IHG IS a filler product. That's what most "glazes" do is fill with a fine kaolin clay material. To quote 3M "Non-silicone, non-wax hand glaze. It is used by hand to refine and fill swirl marks after machine glazing. This product has been formulated to work on all colors and can be painted over." Most "glaze" contain kaolin clay or

Klasse is the opposite, it's a chemical polish/cleaner for Klasse AIO. Sealant does not fill as it can be used on windshields. There are no abrasives in Klasse. It does it chemically.

Regards,
Deanski

OCBen

Do you have a link to the source you're quoting? ... I was looking for more information on their site but couldn't find it. ... I need to get to the bottom of the confusion.

Deanski

Here ya go:3M Product Line

I'm very well versed in 3M from useage in bodyshops. Great product for what it's designed for.

Deanski

OCBen

I see where the confusion may lie. It's apparently in the use of the term "glaze", which has always been an ambiguous term as you probably know and is variously used to mean different things. Meguiar's uses the term for their entire professional series: Mirror Glaze. And the products here range from strong cutters to fine polishers to final waxes. So obviously the term glaze is not a precise term for describing a product, and no one should be misled by the term, even if their eyes happen to glaze over from reading product information.

If you're familiar with Autopia and in particular David Bynon's trademarked "The Perfect Shine" process, he uses 3M's IHG as his final polishing step before sealing and protecting with Klasse AIO, followed by Klasse HGSG. (I think he may have substituted some of the products with his own Sonus product line, though I believe he still uses the two Klasse products.)

At any rate, I've been a disciple of his and an advocate of his methods, and have repeated his steps here in my detailing posts. I'll contact him to see if he's changed his opinion about IHG and ask him specifically about your assessment that it is used as a "filler". I know Larry Reynolds of Carcareonline still advocates IHG as his final polishing product, but he's old school and may not have the most accurate information. Well, we know he doesn't have the latest information on clay use, so I won't use him as a reference here.

Deanski

yes, Dave uses the IHG prior to the LSP (Last Step Product), but no matter, IHG is what it is... a filler of fine swirl or spyder-webbing marks on finishes. The Perfect-It does not fill.

IHG has been around a very long time and during that time, it hasn't changed except to meet VOC restrictions. IHG is one of the better glazes for finishes as it hides quite a bit. It's been a known item in the 3M Pro line that it always filled fine scratches. It does make every attempt to remove some, but in the process, it breaks down and fills. This is another reason why one day when I had a jr person buffing out a 944 Turbo back in the late 80's and damaged a freshly painted panel by letting the wheel hop, I had to remove any trace of IHG prior to re-shoot. Expensive lesson to learn for both of us.

Maybe you remember "Liquid Ebony"? Another great glaze for black cars! Normally that is my go-to item for black finishes.

If your're happy with the results, why change?

Regards,
Deanski

OCBen

Because I always want to do things better. Being a perfectionist might have something to do with it.
I always want to learn the best methods and use the best products available, even if that means abandoning what I've been doing all along. It is my hope that products improve and methods of application get perfected. I'd hate to be stuck doing the same thing if there are better solutions available. So it's my goal to continuously improve, that's why.

zumaron

Looks like there are several 3M products in the Imperial Glaze line. Could this be the source of the confusion?

3M™ Imperial™ Hand Glaze, 05990

3M™ Imperial™ Hand Glaze, 39007

Deanski

Same product but made for consumer packaging and distribution. IHG fills via oils. That's why it HAS to be removed before any paintwork is done. Most shops have now switched to Perfect-It. Still, IHG creates a very rich shine due to the oils and fills minor spider-webbing effects. Nothing wrong with this product! Now, most people in the trade have switched to the Imperial Microfinishing Glaze or Perfect-It SMR and or Perfect-It 3000 Final Glaze for hand use. Seeing most bodyshops have been using 3M for a long time, it's difficult at best for shops to change from a known product to an unkown, but far superior product. Menzerna is not well known in the USA, but worldwide it's the finest polishes out. Most jewelers use Menzerna along with woodworkers as Menzerna makes abrasives for all trades.

After being intoduced to the Menzerna line, I was very impressed with the way it works and the end results. Difficult to find, especially the 32oz Pro Products. The abrasives and the way the emulsion used to apply the product works really well and lets you work it longer without marring or haze. I can paint right after using it as it has no oils (water emulsion) to transport the abrasives. Menzerna abrasives are by far the best I've used and known worldwide.

Find a product that works for you and stick with it!

Regards,
Deanski

OCBen

Deanski, just got off the phone with a chemist at 3M. Very enlightening conversation, I'll say. You're right, IHG is not a polish per se in that it contains no abrasives. Its main use is as a gloss enhancer, in that it supplies a film (a "glaze") of oil-based additives that fill microscopic voids in preparation for sealing and waxing. He admits that the product description is misleading when it says it "can be painted over." In fact, the product shouldn't be used prior to painting at all such as when repairing stone chips with touch-up paint. His recommendation is to dab the local area with 3M's Adhesive Remover to ensure complete removal of all oils and allow it to fully evaporate before applying the touch-up paint.

Wow, so that makes two strikes against carcareonline's recommendations. Thanks a lot for bringing this to my attention. And thanks a bunch for sharing your professional experience and advice on this forum. I'll go ahead and update my product recommendations.

Btw, he pointed out that the Perfect-It series has two categories: II and III, with III being the more aggressive cutting product. He also told me they have a new product designed especially for those scratch-resistant clearcoat finishes by Mercedes Benz:

Deanski

So I heard about the 3M SRC polishes. The others were just made VOC compliant. I've used the Perfect-It line prior to all this VOC nonsense. Very nice products. Mostly the machine products as that's what I use as well.

Good 'ol IHG was used quite a bit in the past and still use it for some cars that are sun-baked to the extreme just to freshen-up the finish. The oils seem to work well in hiding sun damage and leaving it looking a whole lot better!

One day, you have to try some of the Menzerna polishes. They too have a glaze as well. Good 'ol German engineering makes these polishes my first choice. A bit more in price and not as readly avalible as 3M, but high quality abrasives and emulsions (water based). Most people use Menzerna Final Polish II or the glaze for very fine work. They make an excelent cutting polish as well.

Thanks for the update and info. I need a new catalog anyway from 3M!

Deanski