raffi

if the damage is over a certain amount they have to disclose this information...
I found this out when my dealer did not need to tell me that my front bumper on my brand new 997 was repainted.
I think you need to get a PPI done on a brand new car just as if you were to purchase a used one.
I thought this was the only thing we could trust the dealer on...

rkeyser

I got a new car in Los Angeles a few years back when I found that part of my "new" Toyota had been repainted without disclosure. I took it back to the dealer and the general manager called me a crook for wrecking the car and wanting a new one. I got ahold of the DMV Dealer Compliance Divsion and met with what looked like a policeman with a badge down at the dealership. He told the general manager that I needed a new car that afternoon and I got one. Here in CA they don't mess around with this BS.

frayed

With all due respect, please don't take this personally. From a very basic legal framework that any first year law student should know:

These questions have no bearing on the merits of a tortious action for fraud based on the actions of PCNA. These are purely evidentiary matters.

Agreed.

NO! The warranty book is not the bible, and is not the proper template for resolving a dispute involving fraud. A purchase of a car from any car company is not a contract that waives all your rights and causes of action against the dealer and manufacturer. Both entities (dealer and manufacturer) are still subject to a large body of statutory and civil case law that have not been extinguished upon purchase of the car.


Perhaps, but certainly the issue has nothing to do with 'top lawyer, top law firm.'

Presumptuous at best.

Reread my posts above. The acts in question have nothing to do with your statements, but rather the acts of PCNA and the dealer.

vjd3

I would go after the dealership primarily ... I was once leased a "new" BMW Z3 that had "500 demo miles" on it. After I found a business card holder under the front seat and called the number out of curiousity, I learned that my "new" car had been sold to a customer who kept it for two weeks and then made the dealer take it back over some minor paint imperfection in the hood, which I never noticed (and didn't particularly care about). The title work had never been completed, but to me, it meant I had been leased a used car at a new car price. The dealership said, essentially, "Tough." Perhaps legally the car was never titled and still "new" but ethically, they should have disclosed it and I would not have taken the car at that price.

I raised a stink with BMW NA, and got exactly nowhere. Then I contacted the attorney general's office, a local TV station with an "Action" segment and the dealer licensing board for the state to open an investigation. That got the dealer's attention in a hurry, and they immediately offered to give me my trade back and take the car, or pay the first year's lease payments on a 36 month lease. I took the lease payments and signed a non-disclosure agreement, which is why I am not naming the dealership.

PCNA is big with deep pockets and lots of lawyers. The dealership will be more concerned with its license, BBB reputation, and local perception, and can likely lean on PCNA better than you can to arrange an acceptable outcome.

As far as having Porsche repaint the car, no way ... unless they are willing to fork over about 15-20 percent of its price in diminished value, because if you ever go to trade it or sell it, and someone looks at it hard, they will spot the repaint and devalue the car.

The first thing I would do would be to get the offer from Porsche to repaint the car in writing and documented; that is proof of them acknowledging that the car was damaged and repainted prior to delivery, and not disclosed to you ... that is the heart of your claim right there. Agree to consider the repaint in principal to the point where you can get copies of the paperwork for your lawyer to review, then don't sign it and take it to the next level. Once you have the documentation in hand, see if the local media is interested ... local guy who spends six figures on brand new Porsche that was damaged and painted before sale ... it's got a certain ring to it. Good luck.

ltc

Well, I guess there's never a first year law student around when you really need one.

I wish '1whobuys' all the best and hope he posts his results back here in the future.

frayed

I agree with Vic's comments. I'm hoping PCNA and/or the dealer do not read this thread.

fast1

I raised a stink with BMW NA, and got exactly nowhere. Then I contacted the attorney general's office, a local TV station with an "Action" segment and the dealer licensing board for the state to open an investigation. That got the dealer's attention in a hurry, and they immediately offered to give me my trade back and take the car, or pay the first year's lease payments on a 36 month lease. I took the lease payments and signed a non-disclosure agreement, which is why I am not naming the dealership.

This is by far the best option since neither Porsche nor the Dealer want publicity over this issue. TV stations on the other hand delight in publicizing issues like this, so it's not hard to get their interest.

I'm still amazed how some companies treat their customers. This treatment wouldn't be acceptable for someone who bougt a $15K Hyundai, much less a $90K Porsche.

Interestingly enough my wife had a similar experience when she ordered an Infiniti Q45. The paint was damaged when the car was in transit and the car needed to be repainted. The Infiniti Dealer however called my wife and actually pointed out the paint imperfections before the car was repainted. They also told her that they would be happy to order her another car of if she agreed to accept the repainted car, they would issue her a $750 credit that could be used for maintenance performed by the Dealer. BTW the paint imperfections were so minor that my wife confessed that she doubts she would have even noticed them if they weren't pointed out to her.

uzj100

This is an interesting thread to say the least. However, I think it points out what may be a fact of life unknown to many new car buyers--pre delivery repairs and repaints. I live not too far from the BMW vehicle processing facility in Port Hueneme. Thanks to a friend who knows the manager of all of the BMW processing centers in the US, I was able to take a complete and "uncensored" tour of that facility a few years back. They have all of the parts and every BMW paint color available and the ability to completely re-do cars that are damaged in transit and often do just that. I saw new cars getting new transmissions etc, etc in addition to major repainting of body panels. I was amazed by the whole experience. Prior to this facility opening, I knew the owners of a local body shop that did all of the BMW dealer’s paint and bodywork for its new cars.

My own, non-professional observations based on my tours and visits to these places over the years, are that the incidence of significant repairs/repaints might be 10% or higher. OTOH, what I saw was of the highest quality and if you weren't told that something had been replaced or repaired prior to dealer delivery, there's probably no way you could detect it. Obviously in this instance there's been a serious breakdown in quality control and you'd think that both the dealer and PCNA would like for the problem to go away.

This Porsche "snootiness" is unsat. I hope this problem is satisfactorily resolved and that Porsche gets smacked. It wasn’t that long ago the company was in deep trouble and we can vote with our wallets.

Bryan Hughes

Porsche may not fix this problem, but I gurantee that your dealer will have too if you get the State involved. Dealers are very scared of the State when it comes to selling cars and customer complaints. Every state has some type of regulatory officer to police auto dealers ( Secretary of State Police, ect ). Find out what your state has and make a contact. I manage a very large dealership and I have seen vehicles with repaired damage from the factory. It is not right and the manufacturer should be held liable. If the dealer damages a new car on the lot and has it repaired, he has to disclose the damage to a buyer. Why does'nt the manufacturer have to disclose this information if the vehicle was damaged at the factory or port?

mooty

when i shop for a car, i also shop for the dealership as well. there are many good one out there, but there are also some seriously bad apples. beware.

porsche as a manufacturer has been resting on their fame of yesteryear. it will only be time for other brands to catch up. lexus for example is considered by many to be superior than mbz now. i am certain they can compete with the AMG's if they wanted to. they are simpley uninterested at the moment. if the japanese one day feel they want to get into high end sports cars, i fear that porsche or even ferrari would not have much of a chance. witness NSX, a 15 years old design. slow by todays standards, but it can still hange with some of the latest techno wonders. no if they decided to improve such a platform steadily.... whoa... i think i be driving one of those things.

i love porsches and i really hope they realized that bottom line though important, dont mistreat customers as if we are blind idiots.

frayed

Agree with you there Mooty. I think if toytota fixes the styling on this thing, it could be a great car, but I also think that no manufacturer can match the 'feel' and precision of a car like the 911 in one sports car iteration. It will take generations of cars to match the benchmark. After all, it did take toyota a few years to catch benz.

But, point well taken. Porsche's arrogance may be its own undoing.

On a similar note Infinity is on the verge of replicating BMW with their sports sedans. Pretty cool for us consumers.

Anyway, best of luck to 1whobuy. . . what a friggen PITA to deal with.

uzj100

Exactly! Excellent suggestions posted here WRT consumer protection/advocacy assets availble to pursue situations like this. This just seems inexcusable to me.

Stephenkng

I think we need to understand that if we are buying a 15K car, this will not happen. Do you think PCNA will take back the car when there is what they call only a minor damage during transit. They will not eat a $95K lost because of that. Of course they will try all they can to cover and get rip of the car. This is the same thing for BMW or MB

rmklaw

The issue may be more straightforward that you think. Under both state and federal law, the dealer has the duty to disclose any material issues with the car. Clearly damage falls under "material." If the dealer and/or manufacturer failed to disclose, you may have a claim for intentional or fraudulent misrepresentation. Depending on the facts, if there was an intentional misrepresentation or failure to disclose, you may be entitled to void the transaction plus other remedies, such as treble damages and attorneys fees, under the Unfair Trade Practices Act or equivalent legislation in your state, and under state consumer protection laws.

My suggestion is that you do consult an attorney, specially because the associated "diminution of value" issues. Any adjuster or appraiser will tell you that a car that suffered damage and gets even a partial repaint will be subject to a diminution of value. As an example on a MB CLK (new car value $55,000), the diminution of value for a rearended accident was $12,000 after being repaired and certified by MB. On a $100,000 + Porshe, the diminution of value could end up twice as much. Good luck.

fast1

The issue may be more straightforward that you think. Under both state and federal law, the dealer has the duty to disclose any material issues with the car.

I believe it was either in the late 80s or early 90s that BMW learned this lesson from the school of hard knocks. They lost a class action suit because they were repainting cars and not disclosing this information to their buyers.