jjv

I really enjoy this thread because I am only of the many who are considering a 997/997S/997C4/997C4S as a replacement to my current ride, an Audi RS 6. I'm certainly considering an E46 M3 as an "alternative" to the 997, even though I do have the $$$ to play. Funny, a C6 Z06 is also on my short-list and that was another car mentioned in an earlier message as well as is an EVO IX.

I know this is comparing apples to oranges to grapes to peaches, but many of us aren't looking for "like" comparisons. I find these kinds of threads very useful. Every time I go to the track, I battle in my head, which car do I take... Audi RS 6 or MINI Cooper. Two completely different cars which require two diametrically opposed approaches at the track, but it's still a coin toss as every track event approaches.

One thing that is an issue with the 997 for me is storage space. How am I going to haul all my track gear/tools? If I can't fit everything, then I need to start thinking about a tow vehicle and trailer. And if I go the trailer route, then do I even need a street legal track car? Ahhh... decisions... decisions...

Great thread folks. Keep it up! Similar threads like this one show up from time to time on the Bimmer boards and you'd be suprised (or maybe not) how many of those threads lean towards the P-car, even in "hostile" territory.

Chris C.

Sorry, Mous, disagree. 1st a reasonably equipped M3 is a 57K car, compared with a compareably equipped 997S at 87K. That's $30 grand or about 50% more for a 911. Make it a 79K Carrera and the difference is a lot closer. Your argument seems to suggest that because the Porsche costs more, it must be a step up in performance...not necesarily true. One can buy a A-M Vantage for $110-$120...therefore it must be a step up performance wise from a Carrera S, right?

BTW, I question the motives of those of you who look down on a lowly $60K car because you choose to spend more. Is it about performance for you or grandstanding?

Second, the cars are close in street performance (4.1 vs. 4.8) that many people do consider the M3 a reasonable alternative to a C2S, certainly to a C2. Why does the 911 keep those vestige rear seats? Because Stuttgart knows 911 owners have kids they want to introduce to their Porsche hobby (obsession?). Many people consider the M3 as the only car of similar performance specifically b/c it has rear seating. (m5 is too heavy to make this a fair comparison IMO)

Lastly, IMO many people traded in gt3 because they are pretty tough to live with as a street ride. Many Gt3s dyno far above their rate HP (I've heard 400+ hp from reliable sources), and are serious track machines that outperform the more streetable 997S. The performance gap is less obvious on the street where the limits are lower and the 997s performance is more easily put to use (it's more comfortable doing the same level of perf).

The reality is the market for cars at these prices has many segments, with each buying to meet their own criteria and assessing/weighting "performance" differently. Blanket statements don't work. For you, obviously weighing ultimate performance on the track more heavily, you see a big gap. For others, it's small.

I sold both a 993 and an e46 m3 after driving the 997S BTW, and I do believe that the 997 is a step up (until the v8 anyway) on the m3 in many ways. Each buyer has to attach a $$ value to that. I actually chose a 987 (for now) because I love the mid-engine handling and it's lighter tossable feel, and didn't weight 0 to 60 as a criterion as high as some might for a fun 95% street car.

Isn't it great Porsche and BMW make so many great performance cars to choose from?

mooty

i have a well modded e36m3 for track and a 996gt3. yes i know it's not a 997, but i think it's enough for illustration. they drive very differently. i love both. some of those differences can't be explained on paper. if you just go drive the two cars, one will call out to your. or well.... in my case i can't decide so drove both home.

jjv, as far as packing track stuff in a 997, trust me you can pack your entire house in there. a rennlister frined of mine packed all the tools you will need, and tools you don't need, and a floor jack and 4 jack stands, and many other things (cooler, drinks) all in a tiny 993!

pcar964

How about a new Z06... If you're looking for the fastest car for the money, that's it. Also will probably prove to be more durable on the track than the new Porsches, dry sump race motor, etc.

pcar964

Are you saying that you spent $40k more on a car, in large part because people would look at it more?

oh dear...

pcar964

What the heck is a client advisor? Do you mean car salesman?

pcar964

haha - dead on

fast1

BTW, I question the motives of those of you who look down on a lowly $60K car because you choose to spend more. Is it about performance for you or grandstanding?

I think you are mistaken there. Read Jeff's earlier post on this thread because I believe it captures the sentiments of most car enthusiasts on this Board. Anyone who has driven a 997S and an M3 know that the Porsche is clearly superior. When the E90 M3 is released we can revisit the comparisson.

fast1

I've got to agree with you there. Although I've only driven the C6 Z06 one time, it belongs to a friend of mine, it is incredibly fast. It weighs a little over 3100lbs and has 480 lb-ft of torque, so when you hit the accelerator you are literally thrust back into the seat. I'm still not a fan of the design however.

pcar964

I've never been a Corvette fan. But the new Z06 is incredible, plain and simple. Dry sump motor from C5R! Bulletproof gearbox. Great brakes. Great chassis. Nothing short of a GT2 can touch it, and I wonder if even that can match the Z06 on a track.

Does the Z06 have the feel and quality of an old Porsche? No. But then again, neither do the new Porsches

Sunshine

Yes.

boolala

I've asked this question before and got no replies: If Porsche made the Corvette (as it is) and Chevy made the 911 (as it is) which would you buy??

I find it impossible to believe that many people wouild still choose the Chevy (911). Conceit and some perceived degree of exclusivity has got to have something to do with this.

Ray S

Hey good news everyone! PCAR, the infamous 986/987/996/997 hater has decided to join the fray!!!

Suprise, suprise he wants to bring up dry sumps!!!

Here's a few of Greg's (Pcars) golden oldie quotes...

"Of course this is just the latest example of the company abandoning its racing heritage to the sell-out, poseur-crowd - and I'm talking about everything since the 996/boxster were introduced. And for any of you who think "Porsche is still great because they make the GT3," give me a break. Yeah it's a great car, but as they continue to realize their profits are driven by selling out to the cappucino market, expect the GT3 to become even more rare and expensive, until it's just an illusion (like the Carrera GT) the company will use to fool its consumers into thinking their "cayman" or "boxster" or "911" is actually special.

Might as well hang it up, it's over - it was nice while it lasted. Enjoy your real 911s guys, because we'll never see anything like them again... It's funny, but thinking back the only thing that could have SAVED Porsche as we know it, is if they were bought out by Daimler or Volkswagen in the 1990s- at least then (like Ferrari under Fiat), they could have continued along the path that made them who they were. Instead, now they use their history as a crutch while they build overpriced "sporty cars" that are no more trackworthy than a common japanese import...

The purpose of this rant is not to affect change... in my opinion they are way past the point of no return. And I'm not putting the blame only on the company, after all they're just giving the consumer what they want. I just wish those damn poseurs could have destroyed some other marque with their ignorance. Yes I said ignorance - becuase only ignorance on the part of the "new Porshh" buyer would allow an $80k-plus price tag for a wet sump, disposable "911."

Sad times."

OR

"Oh and PS - if anyone is thinking about "rebutting" me with statements like "boxsters are great sportscars" or "997s are faster than 993s," save your breath... Between myeslf and some good friends of mine, we have been witness to numerous track nightmares with these supposed sportscars, they have all either fallen apart or had major engine failures on the track, period - they're trash. If anyone has driven one on the track more than once without something breaking, you're either extremely lucky, or you're driving like a schoolgirl."

OR

"Save the GT3 and GT2, the company is a poseur-car manufacturer."


Come on PCar admit it you just love coming over to stir the pot!!

jjv

The C6 Z06 sounds intoxicating, but I've never ever been a 'Vette guy, either. I'm not sure how "good" I'll feel owning it. I know it sounds superficial, but a lot of car ownership is curb appeal too. I doubt I would ever drive it on the street. If I had a 997 or an M3 I would use it for errands and the occasional commute (as I do with my RS 6). I actually wish the Vette had those pseudo back seats as the 911's do, too.

frayed

Werd, brotha!

Back to the E46. . . as stated above I am a long time BMW fan, moderated a bmw board for years, have owned several E36 chassis cars. My issue with the E46 mainly revolves around the fact that it is not the spiritual successor of the E36. It's heavy, less intuitive to drive, less balanced and predictable, has poorer steering feel than the E36 (and an order of magnitude off the 997 chassis or 996 chassis steering feel), and, while the E36 is under-spec'd in the brake dept relative to Porsches, the E46 is even worse in light of its weight and power.

OTOH, the E46 has a monstrous engine that is very visceral (putting aside the myriad of reliability problems). I view it as a German muscle car, not so much a sports car.

I don't think there are many, but I am one of those people. For me, it made a ton of sense since I won't be tracking 997s (at least seriously), and decided to build a track car for hard track duy. On the street, except for top end pull, the 997s will in many cases outperform the GT3, though the performance envelope is so high in both cars, this is really a moot issue since you would be looking at serious jailtime.

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Finally, on a more global note, it kills me when people argue stats; hp, 0-60, 1/4 mile etc etc. In the end, I don't drive a car for its statistical compilation of data. I buy and drive cars that deliver the most compelling driving experience, and raw performance data is but one aspect of the driving experience. I know many miata drivers who can afford to buy vipers and Z06s. These guys don't care for those cars, b/c they consider the miata to deliver a superior experience.