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Is the car exhibiting high oil consumtion or engine noise??
No engine noise but oil consumption was a quart every 300-500 miles. I parked it for awhile and then replaced AOS as I was told it was bad (manometer vacuum test at shop).
No engine noise but oil consumption was a quart every 300-500 miles. I parked it for awhile and then replaced AOS as I was told it was bad (manometer vacuum test at shop).
Was the car blowing any smoke out of the exhaust pipe? As I look at the residue on top of that piston, I'm wondering if this was a complete AOS failure and the engine sucked oil back through the intake in large quantities, landing in one or more cylinders. You should see traces of oil on the back side of the throttle body plate if so.
As someone that had an FSI engine fail at 1800 miles after I sold it to a fellow rennlister due to not replacing the thermostat (his gold cert Porsche race mechanic's diagnosis when replacing it prior to failure), and then was blatantly lied to (may post the video one day), forced to eat a sh*t sandwich ($15k and promise to never post or "shove it up your @ss"), I can say I have no disillusionments. And while revenge is not worth my time, my experience did provide a decent amount of motivation for bringing Hartech to the US in order to offer our community another option as my "retirement project".
While there does appear to be one significant score mark as pointed out in picture #4, I would be fairly confident in stating that this engine does not have "bore scoring". Nickasil is roughly twice as hard as steel liners and so most marks we see on them during teardown are superficial. Comparing the carbon build up on this piston to the other 6 and seeing that it is fairly consistent across the board would give me even greater confidence to make that statement.
The high level of oil consumption is most likely going to be from the loose tolerances of the JE pistons. This has been the primary issue with all three of the engines similar to this one that we have been asked to upgrade to a closed deck design and rebuild.
Anyway, my recommendation is to find the highest end dyno shop in your area, preferably one with a "hub dyno" if you can, and have three pulls done. Barring any other issues, this should allow you to show a prospective buyer that it is still a good, strong engine. Then you can discount it appropriately for the oil usage and proceed forward with your housing plans.
I sent them last night and have not heard back. I’ve read everything about the streaking and unfortunately some marks look like scoring. We were in communication about the oil consumption issue and I replaced the AOS per his suggestion. As far as I know, it’s never gone below min oil.
Jake is out this week. His daughter has been in and out of the hospital. We did see the ticket, but Jake left it assigned to him indicating he was planning on responding to it.
Being that the engine was originally built in 2013, a lot can happen in that amount of time. I know Jake will have some questions for you, but I'll interject here to ask that you update the ticket you created on the FSI system and let Jake know if there have been any changes made to the vehicle since the work was originally completed (like the addition of a cold air intake or washable filter was used) along with the service history and any used oil analysis results you might have. I'm sure he will have more questions.
I'm also sure Jake will want to know what shop the car is at so he can interface with them.
Last edited by Charles Navarro; Yesterday at 10:19 AM.
Take a look at the fourth picture in particular, that is clearly a long gouge toward the top that has significant depth. I know Jake is like a god around here, but we can make that call without his blessing.
So what could have happened? That doesn't look like scoring I've seen before (progressive aluminum galling) but more like something that foreign debris could have caused. Although it doesn't erase the damage, it may not spread as the debris was likely flushed out already.
Second the comment to open a ticket with LNE as those are Charles' sleeves and his shop did the work. Plus he always has insightful comments.
I too have been out of the country on a much needed vacation and even though I've been back two weeks, I'm still playing catch up. This is my first time hopping on Rennlist in quite some time.
I did look at the photos and I don't think it's streaking. For those unaware with streaking, here is some info on that phenomenon:
Normally this clears up after break in and once you've put on a few thousand miles. Something those who deal with Nikasil cylinders regularly are well aware of.
I see that there is mention that the AOS went bad. This will cause the engine to run rich and will wash down the cylinder bores. This is a known fact. That's one of the reasons we recommend changing the AOS as part of preventative maintenance, just like the water pump.
Likewise, it's important to check the fuel trims regularly to make sure you don't have some sort of enrichment or fuel delivery issue. As these cars get older, I expect to see more and more issues requiring regular replacement of other components like injectors and various other sensors.
I also looked at the photos posted. I do see what looks like scratches, but by no means can this be classified as bore scoring. I'll defer to Jake, but to me it looks some sort of foreign object debris was ingested. As Brandon mentioned, Nikasil is very hard. It's 500 +/- 100 vickers. Nikasil cannot get bore scoring like an Alusil or Lokasil cylinder, but it can be damaged if contamination gets in the cylinder and is dragged by the rings. Unlike bore scoring, a scratch in the plating won't spread and get worse.
Thanks Brandon and Charles for chiming in. Both offer great input based on professional experience... best two opinions you could get on RL for sure.
Since the OP mentions oil analysis had been done regularly, I would go back and look at those samples. If the bore damage is significant I would expect the UOA to show elevated levels of Si when the damage occurred. Since it was also done apparently regularly I would look to see if it's elevated in one specific sample and then reverted back, etc.
The high level of oil consumption is most likely going to be from the loose tolerances of the JE pistons.
I would not necessarily place all the blame on the JE Piston, but I will say that the JE Pistons have vastly improved in the last decade and are much closer in performance to the more expensive Mahle and CP Pistons we offer as alternatives.
Anyway, my recommendation is to find the highest end dyno shop in your area, preferably one with a "hub dyno" if you can, and have three pulls done. Barring any other issues, this should allow you to show a prospective buyer that it is still a good, strong engine. Then you can discount it appropriately for the oil usage and proceed forward with your housing plans.
This is a good suggestion. The scratches in the bores should not negatively affect the performance of the engine.
Personally, I would first make sure fuel trims are correct and that you don't have any other issues like a bad injector. Once you know there are no other issues contributing to this problem, you need to deglaze the cylinders. I have seen several instances where fuel wash down caused high oil consumption and simply by correcting the issue and putting the engine through a "corrective engine break-in" that consumption was brought back into an acceptable level.
I too have been out of the country on a much needed vacation and even though I've been back two weeks, I'm still playing catch up. This is my first time hopping on Rennlist in quite some time.
I did look at the photos and I don't think it's streaking. For those unaware with streaking, here is some info on that phenomenon:
Normally this clears up after break in and once you've put on a few thousand miles. Something those who deal with Nikasil cylinders regularly are well aware of.
I see that there is mention that the AOS went bad. This will cause the engine to run rich and will wash down the cylinder bores. This is a known fact. That's one of the reasons we recommend changing the AOS as part of preventative maintenance, just like the water pump.
Likewise, it's important to check the fuel trims regularly to make sure you don't have some sort of enrichment or fuel delivery issue. As these cars get older, I expect to see more and more issues requiring regular replacement of other components like injectors and various other sensors.
I also looked at the photos posted. I do see what looks like scratches, but by no means can this be classified as bore scoring. I'll defer to Jake, but to me it looks some sort of foreign object debris was ingested. As Brandon mentioned, Nikasil is very hard. It's 500 +/- 100 vickers. Nikasil cannot get bore scoring like an Alusil or Lokasil cylinder, but it can be damaged if contamination gets in the cylinder and is dragged by the rings. Unlike bore scoring, a scratch in the plating won't spread and get worse.
Personally, I would first make sure fuel trims are correct and that you don't have any other issues like a bad injector. Once you know there are no other issues contributing to this problem, you need to deglaze the cylinders. I have seen several instances where fuel wash down caused high oil consumption and simply by correcting the issue and putting the engine through a "corrective engine break-in" that consumption was brought back into an acceptable level.
Agree a bad injector can cause damage to Nikasil and trims should be checked... but I know Jake mandates new injectors on all rebuilds (and for good reason), it would be bad if a new OE injector failed this soon.
Deglazing the cylinders would need to be an engine out + dissembled procedure, correct? Does this imply it needs to be re-honed? Also what is involved in a "corrective engine break-in"? Does this refer to break-in after a re-hone?
Was the car blowing any smoke out of the exhaust pipe? As I look at the residue on top of that piston, I'm wondering if this was a complete AOS failure and the engine sucked oil back through the intake in large quantities, landing in one or more cylinders. You should see traces of oil on the back side of the throttle body plate if so.
no smoke and when I did the AOS change I did not find oil on back side of throttle body. I will get smoke if I start the engine, move the car, shutdown. Then when I restart it will smoke but otherwise none. This seems normal for most flat 6 engines (I’m familiar with piston aircraft).
So, leaning into the group brain trust to see what the general advice and options are including rough cost estimates. Thanks in advance for the input!
You've asked for our advice and opinions. Here we go!
First of all, did you know that it had been in two accidents? The first on 1/17/2011 and the second on 4/11/2020 about 11 months before you bought the vehicle? (I ran the VIN)
Last edited by ZuffenZeus; Yesterday at 03:52 PM.
Reason: to appease the sensitive :-/
@tbobby910 Could you please explain in detail what was serviced at Firehouse Auto Spa, Velocity Motorwerks, and then Mack MotorWerks in the past three years?
Agree a bad injector can cause damage to Nikasil and trims should be checked... but I know Jake mandates new injectors on all rebuilds (and for good reason), it would be bad if a new OE injector failed this soon.
Back in 2013, injector replacements were not mandated nor done as standard operating procedure. This is something that has come to light in the years since. Tony Callas has gone as far as to recommend replacing injectors basically just like the AOS and water pump.
Deglazing the cylinders would need to be an engine out + dissembled procedure, correct? Does this imply it needs to be re-honed? Also what is involved in a "corrective engine break-in"? Does this refer to break-in after a re-hone?
This involves doing double doses of Injector Defender at every fill up for a 1000-2000 miles coupled with using the Cummins spec Valvoline Restore oil with a 500-1000 mile service interval (you can run longer but the oil breaks down quick and oil consumption will then trend upwards again). You'll need to drive the car spiritedly and avoid steady state operation. Lots of runs to 5-6k rpm followed by engine braking should be done. Oil or coolant temp should not exceed 210F while doing this and you should try to do as many heat cycles as possible between these "break-in" runs.
After about 3,000 miles on the Valvoline Restore, we would then recommend switching to our 607-7177 oil with a 1500-2000 mile service interval. This should help reduce the oil consumption significantly as long as there wasn't any permanent damage to the piston rings from cylinder wash down.
If you can't get your hands on Valvoline Restore, there are other oils you can use, but it will make this process take longer. We have used this same process for engines that were accidentally broken in on synthetic or switched to synthetic too soon. By no means should a break-in oil be put into the engine.
However everything must be correct with the engine and fuel system, otherwise the above procedure won't have any benefit and the problem will likely continue to get worse.
Yesterday, 07:29 AM
