Appraisal for a totaled 997 Carrera S
10-26-2023, 08:17 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
My insurer, Acuity, accepted close comps from ads on Auto Trader for agreed value insurance.
Tell your insurer you want accurate, up to date values or you'll get a lawyer. Don't know how most insurance appraisers sleep at night.
Best of luck.
Tell your insurer you want accurate, up to date values or you'll get a lawyer. Don't know how most insurance appraisers sleep at night.
Best of luck.
Last edited by bheit1; 10-26-2023 at 08:29 PM.
10-27-2023, 09:29 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
OP - I went through the exact same ordeal with my 997, however it wasn't totaled but I knew I'd have to fight for DV.
The other insurance initially offered $800 for the DV of my car. $800! when that was off by at least one zero at the end.
So I went down the methodical route of having my car appraised to validate how much it was worth, because that's what the other party insurance was asking for. I also paid for this appraisal out of pocket. All in all, I was utterly disappointed with their methodology. A dude came out, took photos after the repairs and reviewed the work was done. They then sent an appraisal of the "before" and "after" value, which just resulted in a number that was almost exactly KBB. So now I had to go after the appraisers and their skewed methodology, because KBB was off about $15k from documented results like BaT, and asking prices on other sites. In fact, I had shown two lists of results, plotted an equation and showed them that with my mileage/year/trans the car would be worth X. They didn't budge and stood by their "methodology".
But the other insurance company wanted something on a letterhead - and that's all I had to go by. Then we moved to the phase of emailing and calling for several months with no replies and new customer service agents starting from scratch. Not until I found my way to a manager, and multiple emails after weeks going unanswered did I start explaining that this would move to the attorney phase.
That alerted them rather quickly, when they came back with a number that wasn't anywhere close to what I actually deemed was fair - but after 6 months of this effort I felt was good enough to make this go away without involving lawyers.
My recommendation:
I think it will be helpful to have a good appraisal on some official letterhead. There's the unfortunate chance it won't be aligned to what you (as an enthusiast) expect with your much more detailed view of the market. Ask whoever you hire if they are willing to look at that data. If for some reason the report comes back much lower - adjust the results yourself (I'm not a lawyer, and don't quote me on this) - but all the appraiser is really doing is offering some letterhead.
I think you have two options now - send this yourself and start chasing the insurance company potentially waiting months for a resolution. Or just get a lawyer to send this evidence directly, with the ask, for some really nominal amount to save yourself the time - but with a small cut out of it for their time. IMO, I should've done this from the beginning. 6 months of fighting for a lesser amount wasn't ideal, but now I know what not to do.... which is to not have an agreed value insurance policy.
PM me for questions.
The other insurance initially offered $800 for the DV of my car. $800! when that was off by at least one zero at the end.
So I went down the methodical route of having my car appraised to validate how much it was worth, because that's what the other party insurance was asking for. I also paid for this appraisal out of pocket. All in all, I was utterly disappointed with their methodology. A dude came out, took photos after the repairs and reviewed the work was done. They then sent an appraisal of the "before" and "after" value, which just resulted in a number that was almost exactly KBB. So now I had to go after the appraisers and their skewed methodology, because KBB was off about $15k from documented results like BaT, and asking prices on other sites. In fact, I had shown two lists of results, plotted an equation and showed them that with my mileage/year/trans the car would be worth X. They didn't budge and stood by their "methodology".
But the other insurance company wanted something on a letterhead - and that's all I had to go by. Then we moved to the phase of emailing and calling for several months with no replies and new customer service agents starting from scratch. Not until I found my way to a manager, and multiple emails after weeks going unanswered did I start explaining that this would move to the attorney phase.
That alerted them rather quickly, when they came back with a number that wasn't anywhere close to what I actually deemed was fair - but after 6 months of this effort I felt was good enough to make this go away without involving lawyers.
My recommendation:
I think it will be helpful to have a good appraisal on some official letterhead. There's the unfortunate chance it won't be aligned to what you (as an enthusiast) expect with your much more detailed view of the market. Ask whoever you hire if they are willing to look at that data. If for some reason the report comes back much lower - adjust the results yourself (I'm not a lawyer, and don't quote me on this) - but all the appraiser is really doing is offering some letterhead.
I think you have two options now - send this yourself and start chasing the insurance company potentially waiting months for a resolution. Or just get a lawyer to send this evidence directly, with the ask, for some really nominal amount to save yourself the time - but with a small cut out of it for their time. IMO, I should've done this from the beginning. 6 months of fighting for a lesser amount wasn't ideal, but now I know what not to do.... which is to not have an agreed value insurance policy.
PM me for questions.
10-28-2023, 10:38 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Matt DeMaria in Gaithersburg, MD can do a good appraisal for you.
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FormerRotor (10-29-2023)
10-28-2023, 11:02 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
I'll explain the math here to clear up a few things.
I sent them a spreadsheet with 38 listings. One sheet had 23 Autotrader/Cars.com/similar listings, all 2008s. The average list price for a 6-speed Carrera S coupe was $64,564, and average mileage was 55,876. After adjusting downward for the fact that list price is not a sales price and people generally negotiate, and adjusting for my car's higher mileage, it yielded a price of $58,473. I used their method for adjusting both price and mileage, not something I made up.
The other sheet had 15 BringATrailer sales. This is harder because there are fewer direct comps (a lot of 4Ses, some out-of-country cars, etc), but the average sales price of direct comps was $59,313 and average mileage was 36,500, so doing mileage adjustment (no need for price adjustment since it's an actual sale) brings you to about $55,000.
I introduced some confusion in the initial post, which I'll go and edit in a moment, because I included additional value that I calculated related to upgraded parts (e.g. PCCM+) as well, since I'd either want value for those components or the chance to retrieve them from the car prior to sending off for salvage. So, the apples-to-apples comparison is their offered price of about $48,000 and my calculated price of $55,000-58,000.
I sent them a spreadsheet with 38 listings. One sheet had 23 Autotrader/Cars.com/similar listings, all 2008s. The average list price for a 6-speed Carrera S coupe was $64,564, and average mileage was 55,876. After adjusting downward for the fact that list price is not a sales price and people generally negotiate, and adjusting for my car's higher mileage, it yielded a price of $58,473. I used their method for adjusting both price and mileage, not something I made up.
The other sheet had 15 BringATrailer sales. This is harder because there are fewer direct comps (a lot of 4Ses, some out-of-country cars, etc), but the average sales price of direct comps was $59,313 and average mileage was 36,500, so doing mileage adjustment (no need for price adjustment since it's an actual sale) brings you to about $55,000.
I introduced some confusion in the initial post, which I'll go and edit in a moment, because I included additional value that I calculated related to upgraded parts (e.g. PCCM+) as well, since I'd either want value for those components or the chance to retrieve them from the car prior to sending off for salvage. So, the apples-to-apples comparison is their offered price of about $48,000 and my calculated price of $55,000-58,000.
1. If possible I would totally “salvage” whatever upgrades you can from your totaled car. Especially that PCCM+ if you have the old PCM to put back in the car. My daughter totaled my wife’s Audi e-tron and I snagged the charger, extra key fob and the all weather mats as my MIL had a similar A3 (fob, mats). Still trying to sell the charger. One of these days. . . I’ve installed a DSC, MR12Volt and a smart top box for the cab roof. I’d rip all those out before turning the car over if I were in your situation. Mostly because I’d be buying another 997 and would want to install those in my new car.
2. I’m not sure whether you factored in the buyer’s fee (usually $5k in this price range) into your average price. If so, as the seller you’d probably need to subtract that out. Also not sure if you included .1s and .2s in your sample. My gut is that BaT skews high because of the format and because there are quite a few “unique” cars with low mileage. For some reason bidders seem to pay a non-linear premium on low miles, so that might be driving your price up. Your calculated price seems a bit high to me. The mix of 4S and S models is probably not a huge deal. IIRC from the 4Wheelreader YouTube videos I’ve seen, it’s not a huge difference (a couple $k at most but I could be wrong).
I like the 3rd party appraisal option. Probably the option w/ least friction/best outcome.
Good luck with this. I feel for you. It’s enough to have your car get wrecked and then there is all this stuff you have to deal with.
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63mercedes (10-28-2023)
11-02-2023, 11:25 AM
#35
And the main reason I moved my higher mileage (and HIGHLY modified/fully refreshed) 06' C2 over to Hagerty Agreed Upon years ago. Ironically right after installing a $9K Moton 3-Way package. The last thing I needed was someone taking the nose off the car or something to that effect and receiving $25k for a car that I had several offers of $75k on. No arguments, take my deductible and pay me.
11-02-2023, 01:15 PM
#36
I'm in the process of moving to agreed value with State Farm.. I'll follow up here when that finally gets resolved. It's been weeks that I've been waiting for a response.
11-02-2023, 02:09 PM
#37
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Weeks for a response would also be a red flag to me. How do you think the claims process is going to go when they're giving you money if the process for you to give them money is this slow?
Last edited by Petza914; 11-02-2023 at 04:04 PM.
11-02-2023, 03:05 PM
#38
Agreed. After several conversations while moving several vehicle to State Farm (who I already have issues with), including the 997, I was told that they do not offer Agreed Upon policies. Basically I would get what it was insured for (at their evaluation) even if values went up or down, ie not the same thing.
Last edited by Petza914; 11-02-2023 at 04:03 PM.
11-02-2023, 03:43 PM
#39
What is Stayed Value? The person I'm working with apparently thinks "agreed upon value" (which is how I phrased it) is something that they do.
I had second thoughts about posting an easily google-able question so this is what I found:
Agreed value vs. stated value insurance. Agreed value insurance sets the maximum coverage at the agreed-on number between the insurance company and the insured person. Stated value insurance covers whichever is lower: the agreed value (which is also sometimes called stated value) or the actual cash value.
Do you mean "stated value?"
I had second thoughts about posting an easily google-able question so this is what I found:
Agreed value vs. stated value insurance. Agreed value insurance sets the maximum coverage at the agreed-on number between the insurance company and the insured person. Stated value insurance covers whichever is lower: the agreed value (which is also sometimes called stated value) or the actual cash value.
Do you mean "stated value?"
11-02-2023, 03:46 PM
#40
Also, as background, this is how they are thinking of getting this done - If you would like, instead, a guaranteed payout at the value you feel the vehicle is worth – based off Hagarty and the likes, then we may have to rewrite the vehicle’s policy into an Antiques, Classics, & Collectors car instead of a Private Passenger one.
11-02-2023, 04:09 PM
#41
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
What is Stayed Value? The person I'm working with apparently thinks "agreed upon value" (which is how I phrased it) is something that they do.
I had second thoughts about posting an easily google-able question so this is what I found:
Agreed value vs. stated value insurance. Agreed value insurance sets the maximum coverage at the agreed-on number between the insurance company and the insured person. Stated value insurance covers whichever is lower: the agreed value (which is also sometimes called stated value) or the actual cash value.
Do you mean "stated value?"
I had second thoughts about posting an easily google-able question so this is what I found:
Agreed value vs. stated value insurance. Agreed value insurance sets the maximum coverage at the agreed-on number between the insurance company and the insured person. Stated value insurance covers whichever is lower: the agreed value (which is also sometimes called stated value) or the actual cash value.
Do you mean "stated value?"
Agreed Value is the only one you want where both you and the Insurance company "Agree" that X is the value of your car. This is the number used when determining whether it should be repaired or totalled (usually a repair cost around 70% of the value, but seems like they're getting more lenient on this number and they total them if close now) and the value used to pay you out if totalled less your deductible.
Stated value is really useless - the insured states their car is worth Y, but at the time of the accident, the insurance company is going to pull comps, analyze the market and the vehicle condition and tell you what you stated was too high, and that their settlement is Z less your deductible.
That's why I say it's very important not to confuse the two terms as they're technical insurance terms, even though they don't seem like it, and mean very different things.
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carguy999 (11-02-2023)
11-02-2023, 04:41 PM
#42
Thanks, appreciate the heads up. I'll make sure I speak this language when talking with them and let you guys know how it goes.