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Thanks for the clarification on failure modes. While I knew failure rates are low, I didn’t know they were almost always electronically related.
Just to be clear, this is based on failure reports on online forums such as Rennlist, 6-speed and other online sources. Maybe more importantly though, it's also based on the word of the service advisor at my hometown Porsche dealership who has 16 years with them. He says he's never seen a mechanically related PDK failure. Nor has he seen a mechanical failure of a 997.2 manual.
My understanding is that a PDK is a 997.2 manual with electronics eliminating the third pedal so that all adds up. The mechanical portion of either 997.2 transmission seems just about fail proof while the electronics in the PDK is the culprit of the failures. Can't recall hearing about the failure of a 997.1 manual either for that matter. I see no reason for the service advisor to lie about this. If others have different opinions or different failure statistics, please chime in.
Originally Posted by groovzilla
The lacquer paint checks all the way down to the primer. Hard to find a 1970's-1980 308 or Testarossa Ferrari that has original paint. 99% of them have been repainted.
Wow. Never heard of that. Thanks again for revealing what at least to me has been a well kept secret. How does the repaint of all these cars affect the value of them? Typically, a repainted car - especially an exotic - is rejected or heavily low balled by potential buyers. In this case though it would seem like it should bring a premium as long as it was done right by professionals with no corners cut.
My understanding is that a PDK is a 997.2 manual with electronics eliminating the third pedal so that all adds up.
Well.... sort of. While the PDK uses a clutch and not a torque converter.... it has two clutches and it is very very different design from that what's in my .2 transmission. "Just like..." is really stretching it. Whithout looking deeper, one would assume it is the same transmission with hydraulic/mechanical shifters... it is way more than that... it is a very different design.
What does Porsche say about servicing the PDK clutches? "Lifetime" ?
Originally Posted by sandwedge
Typically, a repainted car - especially an exotic - is rejected or heavily low balled by potential buyers. In this case though it would seem like it should bring a premium as long as it was done right by professionals with no corners cut.
Karosserie, a Philly-based body shop was started by ... can't remember his name... who told me personally (he has since sold his shop) that he was asked by the American importer of Ferrari, to re-paint cars direct from the factory. That is how he got his start. The importer told him that American customers were rejecting new cars because of the awful paint from the factory. Further, I was involved in the early '80s with a now defunct auto-hauling company that hauled Euro-made cars. Each maker had (I saw them first hand) body/paint shops located in the ports of entry such as Baltimore to do extensive repairs on cars damaged during shipment. Customers never knew. I saw cars smashed flat... how the heck this happens is beyond me (no they didn't repair the Mercedes I saw pancaked). Oh.. back to Ferrari.... a few years ago, I was at Karosserie and asked about Ferrari paint... did they improve their work from the factory? One of the new owners laughed and pulled up a bright spot light to a two year old Ferrari, and showed me runs down the side of the door. He said this came this way from the factory... the factory attempted to polish out the run but under scrutiny, was clearly visible. Oh well.....
Anywho.... I wonder how many owners of new cars know their cars may have been repaired before delivery to them. Or, when someone puts a paint depth tool on a car, they declare the car has been in an accident but what really happend was a tweak-up from delivery damage... an event no one knew about.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now in Altanta)
Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 08-15-2022 at 09:59 AM.
The 6 speed MTs were not the same as the 7 speed PDKs. I've read that the 7 speed MTs are the same, but that was after the 997 models.
There was an MT failure reported on this Forum a few months ago. I forget the details. But I was surprised at how expensive the repair was.
PDK repair options, which have reduced cost, are now available with substitute electronics that are claimed to be redesigned with better and more reliable parts. There are now multiple locations in the USA who can do this work.
I have not heard of a single mechanical failure in the PDK.
There has been some debate about clutch life. But no data to my knowledge since I don't know of anyone who has had to replace their clutches.
I did recently read of someone who replaced the clutches with racing type clutches. I have no idea what this means. I have no idea if the first clutches were worn out or what degree of wear they showed, let alone mileage or use.
PDK software changed sometime in 2010 or 2011 to soften the shifting. If your dealer updates your software you can not recover the old version. Which version you get if you buy a replacement PDK is iffy.
While the mantra is to caution against buying the first year of any new system, the limited data suggests that 2009 PDKs are as reliable as later units.
Failure rates are still very low for the PDK, IMHO.
We're a fortunate group having the option of a solid MT or a fantastic AT. Most of us are familiar with the MT. The AT takes some time to learn and appreciate (some of us do that, some of us don't). Choosing between one or the other is a privilege.
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The 6 speed MTs were not the same as the 7 speed PDKs. I've read that the 7 speed MTs are the same, but that was after the 997 models.
There was an MT failure reported on this Forum a few months ago. I forget the details. But I was surprised at how expensive the repair was.
PDK repair options, which have reduced cost, are now available with substitute electronics that are claimed to be redesigned with better and more reliable parts. There are now multiple locations in the USA who can do this work.
I have not heard of a single mechanical failure in the PDK.
There has been some debate about clutch life. But no data to my knowledge since I don't know of anyone who has had to replace their clutches.
I did recently read of someone who replaced the clutches with racing type clutches. I have no idea what this means. I have no idea if the first clutches were worn out or what degree of wear they showed, let alone mileage or use.
PDK software changed sometime in 2010 or 2011 to soften the shifting. If your dealer updates your software you can not recover the old version. Which version you get if you buy a replacement PDK is iffy.
While the mantra is to caution against buying the first year of any new system, the limited data suggests that 2009 PDKs are as reliable as later units.
Failure rates are still very low for the PDK, IMHO.
We're a fortunate group having the option of a solid MT or a fantastic AT. Most of us are familiar with the MT. The AT takes some time to learn and appreciate (some of us do that, some of us don't). Choosing between one or the other is a privilege.
I think this was the thread in question regarding the MT replacement and associated projected costs:
That's the one. Up to $14K for, given all the links attached in one of the replies, what sounds like a too common problem with the syncros. Add in first gear grind and are the MTs really more reliable? I sense a case of Forum flu coming on. Ugh!!!
Well.... sort of. While the PDK uses a clutch and not a torque converter.... it has two clutches and it is very very different design from that what's in my .2 transmission. "Just like..." is really stretching it. Whithout looking deeper, one would assume it is the same transmission with hydraulic/mechanical shifters... it is way more than that... it is a very different design.
Karosserie, a Philly-based body shop was started by ... can't remember his name... who told me personally (he has since sold his shop) that he was asked by the American importer of Ferrari, to re-paint cars direct from the factory. That is how he got his start. The importer told him that American customers were rejecting new cars because of the awful paint from the factory. Further, I was involved in the early '80s with a now defunct auto-hauling company that hauled Euro-made cars. Each maker had (I saw them first hand) body/paint shops located in the ports of entry such as Baltimore to do extensive repairs on cars damaged during shipment. Customers never knew. I saw cars smashed flat... how the heck this happens is beyond me (no they didn't repair the Mercedes I saw pancaked). Oh.. back to Ferrari.... a few years ago, I was at Karosserie and asked about Ferrari paint... did they improve their work from the factory? One of the new owners laughed and pulled up a bright spot light to a two year old Ferrari, and showed me runs down the side of the door. He said this came this way from the factory... the factory attempted to polish out the run but under scrutiny, was clearly visible. Oh well.....
Anywho.... I wonder how many owners of new cars know their cars may have been repaired before delivery to them. Or, when someone puts a paint depth tool on a car, they declare the car has been in an accident but what really happend was a tweak-up from delivery damage... an event no one knew about.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now in Altanta)
Kind of what I thought in the back of my head. That there's more to turning a 7sp manual into a PDK than just adding some software and other electronics. But the electronics set apart, doesn't a 2009 PDK and a 2009 7sp manual basically share the same mechanical components? Same for later PDK/7sp manual cars?
As for the Ferrari paint...unbelievable. Paint runs on body panels from the factory on a $250K or higher priced car?? Kind of surprised those who bought these cars weren't aware of this. Based on your inputs it sounds to me that the paint quality on cars shipped from the Ferrari factory hasn't been much better than someone using a spray gun in their garage. Again, puzzling that someone buying a car for a quarter of a million or more wouldn't be aware of this quality defect which if I understand you correctly wasn't just random.
And unless spotted by a sharp eye, many may not have found out until they sold or traded their car and someone put a paint meter to it.
FYI my 997.2 (C2S PDK) is one of the very first to have been produced (June 2008) and is actually sitting at 145 000 miles, never had a single issue with the PDK to this day
I heard there was a certain limit of damage porsche can repair before delivering a new car without having to disclose it. I imagine quite a few front and rear splitters get damaged and probably some wheels too with loading, transit, and unloading.
The paint thing I can see happening, they don't polish and wet sand the paint like a hot rod restoration at the factory. At least it's never shown on footage in production shows and documentaries about the paint line. I'm sure the robots can lay it down real close but, they're not going over it like it's a new rolls royce. For new porsche let alone ferrari cash, it should be perfect.
...I'm sure the robots can lay it down real close but, they're not going over it like it's a new rolls royce. For new porsche let alone ferrari cash, it should be perfect.
To see how the 997.2 went through the paint-shop in Zuffenhausen, jump to the 13m25s mark in the following...
we are original owners of an 09 S with PDK
70,054 miles.
No failures
Serviced the PDK @ ~ 65,000 miles
it has all the SW updates, but it does not shift nearly as well as my "pdk" R8 or a newer PDK Porsche.
Slower shifting between gears when controlled manually
CLUNKS into 1st gear if in sport mode and decelerating to ~ 5mph.
I added a flappy paddle steering wheel from ~ 2010 to ditch the push buttons originally installed.
Buy one, just recognize that they are 14+ year old implementations of the technology.
I heard there was a certain limit of damage porsche can repair before delivering a new car without having to disclose it. I imagine quite a few front and rear splitters get damaged and probably some wheels too with loading, transit, and unloading.
The paint thing I can see happening, they don't polish and wet sand the paint like a hot rod restoration at the factory. At least it's never shown on footage in production shows and documentaries about the paint line. I'm sure the robots can lay it down real close but, they're not going over it like it's a new rolls royce. For new porsche let alone ferrari cash, it should be perfect.
Not sure if this is applicable to your statement but my service advisor at the dealership told me that Porsche allows CPO certification with replaced and repainted front and/or rear bumper covers. Kind of suggests that if done right, the car will look like new so no need to disclose anything. Damage to any other body panel though, no CPO which should get anyone's attention who's looking at an otherwise CPO qualified car that they won't CPO. "Why no CPO"?
08-15-2022, 04:06 AM
