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I'd go either direction, but if I were getting a built engine it would not be from FSI.
Who would you choose then? I did quite a bit of research and talked to a lot of people and minus the extremely long wait I could not find a reason to go with anyone else. It seems to me that if you can wait the wait and are ok with Jake’s very prescribed and meticulous approach you are rewarded with an engine that will produce power, reliability, and overall rewarding driving experience that I don’t think anyone else can replicate.
Now this is just based on me talking with various other builders and comparing notes, scouring the internet for customer feedback, and my initial experience of starting the process. Admittedly I don’t yet own one of his engines so my first hand experience is limited.
I'd go FSI Jake is Jake. Plus he's been doing it for years. If you find a guy to do the GT3 swap I bet they're a lot less experienced because no one really swaps GT3 engines at least on this forum. And that will take extra time and money. I bet that could be a can of worms you don't want to open. I love the idea of a 997 gt3 touring but I'm sure to do it right you need a german crew and a sema show kind of budget.
Who would you choose then? I did quite a bit of research and talked to a lot of people and minus the extremely long wait I could not find a reason to go with anyone else. It seems to me that if you can wait the wait and are ok with Jake’s very prescribed and meticulous approach you are rewarded with an engine that will produce power, reliability, andoverall rewarding driving experience that I don’t think anyone else can replicate.
Now this is just based on me talking with various other builders and comparing notes, scouring the internet for customer feedback, and my initial experience of starting the process. Admittedly I don’t yet own one of his engines so my first hand experience is limited.
RS Tuning, Manthey, or some other highly regarded German outfit. There are quite a number of great options. If we are talking about spending $50k on an engine build then it should be the full monty.
I effectively built a 997 GT3 Touring (https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...b-s-2-gt3.html) and converted the rear to a Carrera-style retractable tail. It was a blast but too harsh and hardcore for my current driving style and needs. The price of entry for a GT3 is crazy now so an engine conversion is starting to make more sense. It's definitely not a project for the faint of heart and whomever embarks on it can't be concerned with resale value. It would have to be a passion project for the sake of having something unique and fun to drive. I hope someone does it so the rest of us can live vicariously!
Originally Posted by 63mercedes
I'd go FSI Jake is Jake. Plus he's been doing it for years. If you find a guy to do the GT3 swap I bet they're a lot less experienced because no one really swaps GT3 engines at least on this forum. And that will take extra time and money. I bet that could be a can of worms you don't want to open. I love the idea of a 997 gt3 touring but I'm sure to do it right you need a german crew and a sema show kind of budget.
RS Tuning, Manthey, or some other highly regarded German outfit. There are quite a number of great options. If we are talking about spending $50k on an engine build then it should be the full monty.
I guess in my research I really came away with FSI as being the benchmark for all the others, but that is just me. I also think there has to be consideration of more than just numbers, if you go all in on a race build from a builder who is focused on race engines you might get something that is only enjoyable on track and needs maintenance at the frequency of a cup car engine.
I guess in my research I really came away with FSI as being the benchmark for all the others, but that is just me. I also think there has to be consideration of more than just numbers, if you go all in on a race build from a builder who is focused on race engines you might get something that is only enjoyable on track and needs maintenance at the frequency of a cup car engine.
People want different things from their cars. My GTS is for the track, I shipped it overseas to Germany so I can have it in range of Spa and the Nordschleife. I'm not in any need of an engine build, but when I am, it will be an engine built in Germany like my car was. If I wanted a US made engine I'd have gotten a Chevy. I'd be a lot quicker that way (in a Z06 for example) but as you've mentioned, there is more consideration than just numbers.
People want different things from their cars. My GTS is for the track, I shipped it overseas to Germany so I can have it in range of Spa and the Nordschleife. I'm not in any need of an engine build, but when I am, it will be an engine built in Germany like my car was. If I wanted a US made engine I'd have gotten a Chevy. I'd be a lot quicker that way (in a Z06 for example) but as you've mentioned, there is more consideration than just numbers.
That is a fair enough perspective. I will say as someone who works for a German company and in a quality role, IMO it is the German approach to a Quality Management Systems that makes a German product what it is. So regardless where I would choose to have an engine built I would very much focus on their process and how well they value their process.
" IMO it is the German approach to a Quality Management Systems that makes a German product what it is. So regardless where I would choose to have an engine built I would very much focus on their process and how well they value their process."
Really? With all due respect - flaking interior finishes, bore scoring, IMS, d chunks, other items... not to mention why FSI has a two year wait to basically fix "quality" based issues. I wonder if Jake follows these same quality process as Porsche....
" IMO it is the German approach to a Quality Management Systems that makes a German product what it is. So regardless where I would choose to have an engine built I would very much focus on their process and how well they value their process."
Really? With all due respect - flaking interior finishes, bore scoring, IMS, d chunks, other items... not to mention why FSI has a two year wait to basically fix "quality" based issues. I wonder if Jake follows these same quality process as Porsche....
You can cherry pick failures from any manufacturer and all of your failures are primarily design related vs manufacturing related. From a production standpoint German manufacturers have a pretty high bar in terms of quality which results in a very solid consistent product with very few quality defects.
If you have worked with Jake then you know he has a very process oriented approach from start to finish.
I was being sarcastic; I'm sure Jake has a process; its just not the "Porsche" process when it comes to building a quality engine.
Well again I think you have to be careful in build vs design. I think they build a very quality product. Ironically that same level of constancy and attention to detail in building results in a very predictable mode of failure on some of the things you mentioned.
Tough choice ...
Having owned several GT3s, 996 Mk 1, 996 Mk 2 GT3RS and a couple of Gen 1 997 GT3s, I’m not convinced of the Mezger engine’s benefits for street use. Don’t get me wrong, they are truly wonderful engines, and they have a unique sound and power delivery characteristics, but a big bore, torquey M97 is probably better suited to modern street driving.
The Mezger engine will require the GT3’s transmission too, which will add a fairly chunky amount to the build cost.
I had an unrestricted 2009 997 Cup engine fitted into one of my 996 GT3s. The end result produced 465hp at 8300 rpm, it was quite a thing :
but as you can hear from it idling it was a lumpy, cammy engine, no Variocam, big valve, big port Cup heads, long duration, high lift cams, no cats. A bit of a monster, that ultimately was just too highly strung for street use.
If you can get a 4.3L FSI engine built, and you can deal with Jake and the hoops he’d have you jump through (I couldn’t) then the FSI engine would make for a fantastic package allied to your car’s superb weight loss programme.
As others have said, it won’t quite rev or sound the same as a Mezger, but the torque it’ll produce allied to your car’s weight, will make for a very useable and incredibly potent car.
I tend to think the DFi engine is every bit as good as the Mezger, it may not have the same redline, but a 4.0, 4.1 or 4.3 with decently ported heads, better cams and both the induction and exhaust “uncorked” would make well over 450hp, rev to 7800-8000 and have stump pulling torque. But integrating the DFi electrical infrastructure with the Gen 1 997 chassis CAN bus system wouldn’t be straightforward, and I’d want to avoid having to use a standalone ECU at all costs.
A big bore/stroked FSi M97 makes the most sense. And great though the Mezger engines are, I wouldn’t get too hung up on the kudos of having one in the back of your car, especially when you have another, more straightforward (and many would say better) option.
Good luck whichever route you choose to go with.
Given that I understand that the wait time for a Flat6 build is now VERY long (as in years, but I might be wrong about this). I'd reach out to another builder that does these 4.0L rebuilds.
I appreciate the inputs on the matter folks. I can see the reasoning behind people in both camps. To be honest, I have never taken it to the forums on the mods I want to do to my car. As I thought I had a clear vision on how I want the car to be. But the engine part really is doing my head in. The reason I brought up the cost and resale was more for discussion. I personally won't have any issue paying whatever it's going to cost me to either build the engine or do the GT3 swap as long as it's done right. And I'm planning on keeping the 997 as long as possible, so resale is not a concern for me either. The long wait for FSI is not an issue. The current engine is in good health. I will have no problem enjoying the car while I wait for my turn. With that said, I'm starting lean towards FSI a little bit simply because it's a way more documented process with many forums members praising their work. The end product is more defined and supported.
As a side note, thanks to one of the forum members. I will have a chance to experience a stage 2 3.8 engine built by FSI. That might help in my decision making as well.
11-03-2021, 12:25 PM
