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OK, I had sent some emails to Liqui Moly last year or so asking about their Ceretec and MOS2 products. They recommended alternating them every other change. Then they noted to use their engine flush product. Hmmm.... When you change your oil, you pour this stuff in, idle the engine for 15 mnts, then drain. Any residual is supposed to evaporate out under heat.
Anyone use this stuff? Builders: When you tear down our Porsche engines, do see anything in there that should be flushed out? Liqui Moly said it also removes some deposits on the rings... Hmm.... good or bad?
Lies. Idling is not going to get the rings hot enough to burn off any deposits. Engineering explained recently did a video on this. I don't believe any "flush" product does anything good. If you're putting these products in to provide additional lube, why would you then need to flush it out?
I think running the proper oil, not adding all this extra stuff, Is better. There are oils that have the additional friction modifiers the M96/7 engine need.
following. Also, I often run a bottle of Techron in my cars, and I think it does help through the fuel system. Also, occasionally some MMM with oil change, and a dash of ZDDP in oil changes in my old 78 928.
Fuel system treatments are a different thing in my opinion and worthwhile - seafoam, Techron, etc.
I don't believe in any of the oil treatment additions. Too much risk in them being incompatible, the additive separating out of the oil solution, or it just being a waste of money. Use the right oil and you don't need to add anything. When I pulled the sump off my 997 recently, everything in there was pristine - nothing to flush or clean up.
In a 928 motor I installed I had a potentially sticking lifter. In that situation, I ran a can of seafoam in the engine oil for a couple hundred miles, changed it, did it again, and it seemed to fix it. Point being if you have a problem you're trying to fix there may be some merit. If the car is running fine, I wouldn't bother as you might do more harm than good.
In the 928 I do run seafoam in the fuel tank as it helps to lubricate the mechanical fuel distributor since mine is a 79 K-Jet version.
Let's see ... We have a 10 quart system that drains significantly less than 10 quarts. Old oil is left in galleys and elsewhere. An oil change is really an oil dilution. So when you drain out the flush you're really diluting the flush.
And just let the motor idle rather than driving off and warming it up properly?
I have only ever used an engine flush ONCE where I thought it was warranted - a '95 volvo 850 turbo with 130k miles, unknown history of oil change, visible sludge through the oil cap, and literally gritty oil when i touched the dipstick. My point of using it there was I wanted a solvent to help breakdown serious deposits and sludge around the engine from terrible care....and ya know what, that was a risky move because I could've easily messed with something that shouldn't be messed with at that point.
In a well loved engine with frequent oil changes - especially one with high quality oils used which have great ability to clean the engine as it lubricates and suspend particles in it - there's just never a need to pour in anything else. If you feel your engine is getting dirty - for whatever reason - just do some more oil changes and drive it hard to get it nice and hot with fresh oil. Best cleaning you can get.
Good stuff all...... keep it coming. We would all love to hear from the builders here.
A few points.
- You do heat up the engine like a normal change, then right before you drain, you put this stuff in and idle for 15 mnts. Any residual will burn out under normal heated driving..... so they say...
- Not all solvents break down all chemicals. A target baddie has a handful of keys.... these keys may or may not affect the base oil much if the chemist did their job. If the flush does break down the existing oil, and lessens its lubricating qualities, that still may not be a bad thing as the time in the engine is so short. I have no idea if what I wrote here is correct, but I do want to give Liqui Moly some slack here... they do produce products that many here swear by. Odd that they would make these great products, and then one they push that hurts your engine. Just sayin'..... no hard logic here.
- My Ford engineer friend noted that deposits around rings are not necessarily bad and their deposition is part of the break in period.... and part of the reason a new engine uses more oil than one that is broken in. If this is true, then you really don't want to screw with this balance... no? Or maybe on a high mileage engine it is time to do some cleaning?
I have no hard opinion either way about this stuff..... I am just interested as I noted above, a company that many here respect developed and promotes this stuff.
I have never heard that deposits are acceptable. And I've never heard that deposits help an engine burn less oil as part of the break-in of an engine.
I'm not an engineer. But if deposits in any location were desired or acceptable, an engine would be designed with those in place. Secondly, deposits on rings, would inhibit their proper movement and sealing of the bore. And during engine break in, the bores are set and I would imagine any restrictions would disrupt the process and potentially cause the engine to constantly burn oil...
(Full disclosure, I've only built/raced motorcycle engines, most being two stroke. But the fundamentals should be the same)
Not sure the merits of these types of products, but at over 150k miles you might run it and see if you feel a difference, since it advises changing oil right anyway. Others at lower mileage might not notice any difference, as they don't have the same amount of wear or buildup.
You may be right Mr Wheeler, I have to question where I get my information... sometimes... my memory ain't so good or I parrot back what was told to me multiple times. I got this deposit thing from my Ford friend who is an exec on the service side of Ford... One of the things he deals with is big problems dealers have with customers, particularly commercial fleets. No, this does not make him right, but it is what he told me. The combination of rings-to-cylinder mating ... what happens during break in along with deposits result in a lowering of oil usage during this period.
I need to do some research..... anyone here better informed?
Update: I found a really cool academic article on what happens in a cylinder .... wow.... page 65 denotes how deposits in the rings can lead to damage. Page 75 denotes carbon on rings can lead to "scuffing"... bore scoring anyone? Anywho..... interesting. https://www.vttresearch.com/sites/de...2002/T2178.pdf
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 05-15-2020 at 02:25 PM.
Scuffing and scoring was my first visualization when you mentioned deposits on the rings.
This brings up a very distant memory. I was 19 and in college. A 1965 Ford Econoline came up for sale for $300. It had been commercially used as a part of a fleet of service vehicles. 130K miles. Serviced by an in company garage.
It was the very early 70s so I grabbed some carpet from a friend's mother who had just recarpeted her house. I built it into a van of that era. And out of the love of a teenager I did an oil change with the best dino high detergent oil.
Well, would you like to talk about the sludge buildup of 130K miles of non detergent oil?
Got 100 miles out of town. The hydraulic lifters stopped lifting. My father drove his 1968 Country Squire wagon out and we towed the van back. Yep, I got to do a full top end rebuild.
I don't see this being the same problem in a modern engine and especially if you are doing the flush and almost immediately dropping the oil.
All the same, I don't intend to be the test case here. I'll argue that I don't have enough Blackstone oil analysis on mine to create a data point. Allow me to nominate Pete (Petza) to this position of high admiration. He has the historical data to compare results. Pete ... Are you game? Pete ... Are you there?!?!
The way you baby that car you engine probably looks like Pete's. I would leave it alone. As others have already stated, if its not broken, you don't have anything to fix and might make things go badly...
05-14-2020, 08:55 PM
Engine Flush - Builders?
