So here is my post in 2016 when trying to purchase that low mile 2008 cherry unicorn. Seems like a lot of people throwing design flaw around back then.

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...scoring-2.html

 

He has never been super transparent on this or his rebuild specs. I and others have asked several times for real numbers and real objective data about failures, but his presence at times seems more like marketing. Would love to know numbers as well. I would be shocked if he didn’t have breakdowns by year, mileage and a litany of other data points.

If this driven by fuel, oil, climate, driver habits and there was not manufacturing defect, seems like this high of an incidence in scoring would be experienced across many different manufacturers, not just Porsche.

Anyway, here is Baz in 2016 rreferenced in my 2016 scoring post where Baz seemingly alluded to manufacturing defects. Seems like Jake has departed from this mfg angle which it seemed like he agreed with back then. On cell phone, but someone could link up the piston angle discussion.

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...ored-bore.html

 

Offered as an opinion. There are enough variables that I cannot imagine a successful case against Porsche. One or many owners can certainly test the class action waters, but based on past attempts against every manufacturer, the outcomes favor the manufacturer.

Which one of the following variables is at fault, which combination of the following variables is at fault, or are we discovering new problems as a result of bad design or testing, etc (e.g. LSPI)

- Bad requirement and/or specification laid on the design team
- Bad design at the part or assembly level
- Testing was inadequate or sloppy
- manufacturing defect at the part or assembly level
- tolerance build up
- changes in oil composition
- changes in fuel composition
- over spec'd or under spec'd service parts (engine air filter, oil filter, oil, etc)
- driving environmental (temperature, humidity, dust)
- Driver inputs
- Workshop manual for schedule maintenance flawed
- Maintenance schedule or instructions not followed

Porsche knows the pedigree of the parts that went into the engine. After that, very few cars' servicing is tracked as tightly as Porsche tracked their manufacturing.

I do not love my car. It is a car with capabilities that meet my multiple driving needs. As a retired military aviator, I admire the engineering behind it, its lines, and its performance. It provides many potential experiences that few cars can. It is not a unicorn and it is not an investment. Like everyone who owns a 997, or a cayenne, or Toyota, or Nissan, or.... I know that there will be something that breaks eventually, or wears out, or just self destructs... Price of admission and admittedly, the engine is the priciest, short of an accident of course.

Most manufacturers do not farm out their engines. They build them. Single most expensive assembly in the car. Due to many external and internal requirements, the engines of today are far more complicated than their predecessors and are having to use tighter tolerances, and it will continue that way, even with EVs

I do not know of any engine on the road today that doesn't have a forum filled with problems. It does not stop us from buying and driving these machines that provide us incredible independence and experiences.

Jake, as always, thank you for sharing your info and experience. Concur with you about holding manufacturers accountable 12 years later, unless it is a safety or environmental problem, e.g. Takata airbags and emission cheats.

 

Doug - why don't you take this case on being that you specialize in class action and argued the other side and would know Porsche's moves before they would? Probably make some nice change $ from this as well. Alternatively, the firm that brought the IMS case up. Is there an SOL on this?

 

Statute of repose is the issue. Those vary by state. I am a defense guy. Two guys I used to practice with are the best in the country on plaintiffs’ side and have well over a billion in jury verdicts. One is a Porsche guy, although he drives the new stuff. I may reach out to him and see his thoughts. He has taken the really big players down and has some of these several hundred million plus tobacco and defective drug jury trial verdicts.

Jake may be correct in the age/time issue depending on state (there are ways to navigate) and without someone like Jake really close to the issue and perhaps being the most knowledgeable about the cause issue helping the little guy out, it could be tough. I thought Jake and Baz all along were throwing out design flaws. He backtracked from that today in hurry.

 

What cities are these cars from?

 

Thanks for taking time out of your hectic schedule to share this info with us.

 

People used to drive american cars and expect them to fall apart after 3 years. I know this sucks, but look how far we have come. Most any car passing 100k in mileage used to be a unicorn!

 

Lol, when . . . in the 1950s. Even muscle cars were pretty durable. Cool if you find scoring acceptable. I think it sucks to see guys getting hit with massive bills on something purchased to derive joy. What other more modern somewhat high end car do you know of that has a high incidence of catastrophic engine failure.

 

The only thing that stays the same, is that everything changes. In 2016 we had yet to see the spike in failures that occurred 18 months ago. We have also learned more, and have seen dozens more cases of scoring to learn from.

This is why no Expert exists on this topic. We will never know enough to assume that title.

No single contributor leads to Bore scoring, it is a sum of many contributing factors, many of which cannot be controlled.

 

Hi Jake - if you go up a bit you will see my initial reply. Can you confirm if you ever had a client with bore scoring with less than 28,000km or 18,000 miles?

 

This sort of defines a "design defect" then. Or at least design obsolesence based on time rather than miles. Either way, it points squarely back to the manufacturer. In order to make sense out of what is presented in this thread, one glaring question is what is the percentage incidence of this occurring? If it is only 2%, then not such a worry. Remember, virtually 100% of what Jake sees has the problem, or it would not be there. But that stat doesn't tell us what the actual percentage of failure rate is in the overall population. Jake - can you surmise on that?

 

There's no way to create a percentage. We have no idea how many engines were built in total, how many failed and were misdiagnosed, how many went back to the factory as cores for replacement engines, and how many failed while under warranty.
Without these figures (which can never be attained) the calculation of percentage of failure would be nothing more than an educated, wild ***, guess.

Not everything we see today has failed, about 40% of our work is elective work, where the owner wants to curb the issues before they show up. In a good portion of those we find something that would have taken them off the road, as an "in process" failure. The elective work makes up more of our work load today, as I turn down more failure work, as the elective workload increases. We can only do so much, and I refuse to increase quantity, at the cost of quality, and of course, we'd much rather perform elective jobs that have no question marks in regard to cost, or processes. Failures always have collateral damage, which creates a question mark in the cost portion of the proposal that governs our work. Seeing both elective, and failed engines gives us a vantage point that no one else has.

@ThreeSixNine
I have seen bore scoring first person from an M9X powered Porsche at 12,000 miles, with an original engine. The overall record was 7,000 miles from a factory crate (replacement) engine that was provided as a "short block" only. Who knows how the shop fitted the components, and how the engine was broken in. They did not replace the fuel injectors, which pretty much meant the new engine died just like the old one did, and even lost the same cylinders all over again.

Also, I call a "design defect" and a "materials selection" two different things. The design of this engine has nothing wrong with it, in fact I prefer the design over the newer (9a1+) engines. The materials/ processes selection is what has created something that is more susceptible to the current operating environment of these engines. These issues have always popped up over the years, but not like they have in the last 18 months, where we have seen the huge outbreak of instances occur, from all over the country. My build board is completely full, and has been all year. Due to this, 3 times this year we stopped accepting new orders, just so we could retain sanity, keep everyone informed, and etc. I've never had that happen before.

Everyone is always looking to pin the blame on someone else. Not me. While everyone is busy guessing, bickering, and blaming, I am busy solving the damn problem. The solution is all that matters to me- nothing else.

 

I would settle for something less speculative such as a break down of the number of 1 and .2 engines with scoring they have rebuilt. There is no way to get an accurate bead on percentages, especially with a problem that has a latency period of varying degrees. Total number of failures seen for .1 and for .2 would be a start though.

Could this spike he speaks of be just people with out-of-warranty failures contacting him more now given his constant marketing presence on forums, videos he did in conjunction with Porsche or Excellence and the how to videos people can pay to attend. For instance, I have been around 911s and have been building hot rod 911s and 911 race cars since the 80s and never heard of Jake until the last couple of years due to his presence on here so perhaps this spike is derivative of people becoming more and more aware of him in the last 2 to 3 years . . . or perhaps scoring that was asymptotic is now starting to fail or become symptomatic . . . or worse, these engine are reaching their shelf life due to inherent design flaws.

 

Can we keep this thread technical? I don't want to lose out on any data/information that could be shared due to thread derailment based on litigation. I seems participation by Mr. Raby is being self throttled because where this topic is going was not the intended purpose. Once all the info is laid out, perhaps those interested in suing Porsche can take all the info shared and run with it. As it is now, we know nothing but that 2 low mileage cars have bore scoring. I seriously hope we can learn more.