Iron cylinder liners in new 992 Turbo
12-06-2019, 08:39 AM
#16
Manufacturing cost will be a much bigger driver than you are probably thinking. I work in automotive and if it will save pennies then the lower cost option will win, Conversely a new technology can be wonderful, have much better long term reliability and it won't get put into a car if it costs pennies more.
12-06-2019, 09:34 AM
#17
Nordschleife Master
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Not sure, but the new Turbo is insanely fast and wider than the regular 992. A test car recently had 295s on the front and was in the 2.1 0-60 range.
Not much cost cutting there and a pretty dang remarkable feat if you ask me!
Not much cost cutting there and a pretty dang remarkable feat if you ask me!
12-06-2019, 01:47 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Anyone who races knows Iron sleeves are the way to go .... Aluminum , Nakasil ,coatings etc are way more susceptible to scoring and failure and were implemented to save costs and under the guise to save weight and maximize heat transfer.
Any engine with iron cylinders will be much more robust in that department. I have rebuilt engine blocks with iron cylinders that were outside in junk yards for decades and when cleaned up ran perfectly for years thereafter.
Many sport bikes when I grew up had Nakasil or some sort or cylinder coatings being used especially the 2 strokes and overall the engines were decent and durable but it was not unusual to experience bore scoring or D chunking etc in a handful of engines regularly as such failures came with the territory.
Any engine with iron cylinders will be much more robust in that department. I have rebuilt engine blocks with iron cylinders that were outside in junk yards for decades and when cleaned up ran perfectly for years thereafter.
Many sport bikes when I grew up had Nakasil or some sort or cylinder coatings being used especially the 2 strokes and overall the engines were decent and durable but it was not unusual to experience bore scoring or D chunking etc in a handful of engines regularly as such failures came with the territory.
12-07-2019, 12:59 AM
#19
Former Vendor
Anyone who races knows Iron sleeves are the way to go .... Aluminum , Nakasil ,coatings etc are way more susceptible to scoring and failure and were implemented to save costs and under the guise to save weight and maximize heat transfer.
Any engine with iron cylinders will be much more robust in that department. I have rebuilt engine blocks with iron cylinders that were outside in junk yards for decades and when cleaned up ran perfectly for years thereafter.
Many sport bikes when I grew up had Nakasil or some sort or cylinder coatings being used especially the 2 strokes and overall the engines were decent and durable but it was not unusual to experience bore scoring or D chunking etc in a handful of engines regularly as such failures came with the territory.
Any engine with iron cylinders will be much more robust in that department. I have rebuilt engine blocks with iron cylinders that were outside in junk yards for decades and when cleaned up ran perfectly for years thereafter.
Many sport bikes when I grew up had Nakasil or some sort or cylinder coatings being used especially the 2 strokes and overall the engines were decent and durable but it was not unusual to experience bore scoring or D chunking etc in a handful of engines regularly as such failures came with the territory.
None of the engines that have scoring issues are Nikisil plated, the Lokasil and Alusil offerings are what have a problem.
When honing Nikisil plated cylinders, we must use a diamond hone- nothing else will cut the Nikisil. An aluminum alloy piston isn't going to score Nikisil. I have been using Nikisil since 1999, and have yet to see a cylinder bore be lost to scoring with one of my engines.
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JustinCase (12-07-2019)
12-07-2019, 05:42 AM
#20
Jake, we agree! and have fitted over 3000 Nikasil plated cylinders in the UK without any failures too and even when a valve has dropped or debris from some other failure (like a crankshaft) have got into the engines we can usually just re-hone any minor marks out and continue to use them - AND they simply don't wear because Nikasil is oleophilic and really hard. We too had to invest in our own honing machine and diamond hones to touch it.
Nice to agree for once?
I have not looked into the newer engines yet but assumed the iron was deposition plasma sprayed on and therefore very thin? although the pressures they run at might need stiffer base material - any news from others on this?
Baz
Nice to agree for once?
I have not looked into the newer engines yet but assumed the iron was deposition plasma sprayed on and therefore very thin? although the pressures they run at might need stiffer base material - any news from others on this?
Baz
12-08-2019, 01:19 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
Ford uses that method on the Mustang V8s and licenses the technology to Nissan for use in the GTR engine. I've never heard of one having bore scoring and there a plenty of cars with very high mileage. The thickness has varied over the years... was .6 mm.
12-08-2019, 02:11 AM
#22
Advanced
Thread Starter
According to C&D, the 9A2 is iron coated while the article above indicates that the 992 Turbo uses iron liners.
The new engines, known internally as 9A2, are complete redesigns of the existing 9A1 powerplants, although they retain the traditional flat-six layout and general dimensions of their predecessors. The engine block still consists of two parts, each with a crankcase half and a block of three cylinders. However, these cylinder bores are now coated with iron that is plasma-sprayed onto the aluminum surface. The raw aluminum cylinders are machined with slightly undercut grooves, so that the 150-micron-thick (0.006 inch) iron coating interlocks mechanically with the aluminum. According to Thomas Brandl, one of the engineers working on the new engine, this RSW (Rotating Single Wire) process is more durable than either Nikasil or the silicon-reinforced Locasil process used previously.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...urbo-flat-six/
The new engines, known internally as 9A2, are complete redesigns of the existing 9A1 powerplants, although they retain the traditional flat-six layout and general dimensions of their predecessors. The engine block still consists of two parts, each with a crankcase half and a block of three cylinders. However, these cylinder bores are now coated with iron that is plasma-sprayed onto the aluminum surface. The raw aluminum cylinders are machined with slightly undercut grooves, so that the 150-micron-thick (0.006 inch) iron coating interlocks mechanically with the aluminum. According to Thomas Brandl, one of the engineers working on the new engine, this RSW (Rotating Single Wire) process is more durable than either Nikasil or the silicon-reinforced Locasil process used previously.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...urbo-flat-six/
12-08-2019, 12:08 PM
#24
Race Car
Anyone who races knows Iron sleeves are the way to go .... Aluminum , Nakasil ,coatings etc are way more susceptible to scoring and failure and were implemented to save costs and under the guise to save weight and maximize heat transfer.
Any engine with iron cylinders will be much more robust in that department. I have rebuilt engine blocks with iron cylinders that were outside in junk yards for decades and when cleaned up ran perfectly for years thereafter.
Many sport bikes when I grew up had Nakasil or some sort or cylinder coatings being used especially the 2 strokes and overall the engines were decent and durable but it was not unusual to experience bore scoring or D chunking etc in a handful of engines regularly as such failures came with the territory.
Any engine with iron cylinders will be much more robust in that department. I have rebuilt engine blocks with iron cylinders that were outside in junk yards for decades and when cleaned up ran perfectly for years thereafter.
Many sport bikes when I grew up had Nakasil or some sort or cylinder coatings being used especially the 2 strokes and overall the engines were decent and durable but it was not unusual to experience bore scoring or D chunking etc in a handful of engines regularly as such failures came with the territory.
12-08-2019, 01:12 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Can you share some details on your 4.2L M97 build?
Anyone else find it interesting that the new 992 now uses iron cylinder liners in an aluminum block? I certainly remember taking a lot of heat for going with iron liners in my 4.2L M97, which was considered "a step backwards" in terms of innovation. Just saying.
"The primary motivational hardware—a twin-turbocharged 3.8-liter flat-six—remains largely unchanged with the exception of iron cylinder liners, cast-iron exhaust manifolds, and piezoelectric fuel injectors."
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...rototype-ride/
"The primary motivational hardware—a twin-turbocharged 3.8-liter flat-six—remains largely unchanged with the exception of iron cylinder liners, cast-iron exhaust manifolds, and piezoelectric fuel injectors."
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...rototype-ride/
12-08-2019, 01:15 PM
#26
Advanced
Thread Starter
Of course, this is just an opinion and now the general consensus of the Porsche community. Everyone can have their opinion on this issue but Porsche's position is to use iron coating in the 9A2 and iron liners in the 992 Turbo.
12-08-2019, 01:43 PM
#28
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I wonder how much these forums and social media in general is driving these makers, such as Porsche, to spend the bucks and improve their product? Improvements they otherwise would not do.
In other words, don't fall into that Porsche is all Holy... engineering excellence crap. They are a consumer products company like anyone else out there with stock holders et al.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
In other words, don't fall into that Porsche is all Holy... engineering excellence crap. They are a consumer products company like anyone else out there with stock holders et al.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
12-08-2019, 03:02 PM
#29
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I wonder how much these forums and social media in general is driving these makers, such as Porsche, to spend the bucks and improve their product? Improvements they otherwise would not do.
In other words, don't fall into that Porsche is all Holy... engineering excellence crap. They are a consumer products company like anyone else out there with stock holders et al.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
In other words, don't fall into that Porsche is all Holy... engineering excellence crap. They are a consumer products company like anyone else out there with stock holders et al.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Porsche, however, generally ranks pretty high up on JD Powerr and other reliability rankings. The newer cars are dam good products and very reliable considering the performance they offer.
Funny to me that people focus so much on this issue and not what I said about the new Turbo being a 2.1 ish 0-60 car. Forget the manufacturer estimated 2.5. I know people that have driven it that have 991.2 Turbo Ss, GT3 RSs and etc., and word is this thing is a whole other level in quickness. Amazing engineeringvto get that power down IMO.
12-08-2019, 04:57 PM
#30
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Well sure, that includes anyone in business. They fleece the consumer one way or another.
Porsche, however, generally ranks pretty high up on JD Powerr and other reliability rankings. The newer cars are dam good products and very reliable considering the performance they offer.
Funny to me that people focus so much on this issue and not what I said about the new Turbo being a 2.1 ish 0-60 car. Forget the manufacturer estimated 2.5. I know people that have driven it that have 991.2 Turbo Ss, GT3 RSs and etc., and word is this thing is a whole other level in quickness. Amazing engineeringvto get that power down IMO.
Porsche, however, generally ranks pretty high up on JD Powerr and other reliability rankings. The newer cars are dam good products and very reliable considering the performance they offer.
Funny to me that people focus so much on this issue and not what I said about the new Turbo being a 2.1 ish 0-60 car. Forget the manufacturer estimated 2.5. I know people that have driven it that have 991.2 Turbo Ss, GT3 RSs and etc., and word is this thing is a whole other level in quickness. Amazing engineeringvto get that power down IMO.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
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TheTorch (12-09-2019)