Hi Gang!
09-04-2018 | 12:53 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 122
Likes: 2
From: San Francisco
Hi Gang!
Some of you may have seen my tale of fun and woe over in the 996 Forum.
Bottomline: My beloved 2002 996 Cab w/6 Speed manual suffered a catastrophic engine failure at 72,000 miles when the cam chain suddenly broke under a no-load condition. The engine grenaded.
I've sold my car as a roller and will be looking to buy a 997.2 (I've been warned that the 997.1 has the same engine/problems as my '02 Cab).
My requirements will include it being a cabriolet with 6/speed manual tranny. I'll be reading this forum carefully and try to avoid as many "areas of concern" as possible.
As one 996 forum member said recently, "997 owners only talk about DRIVING their cars. 996 owners talk about their cars BLOWING UP."
Hope to be back in action soon. Any specific problem areas to be especially careful of with the 997.2?
Cheers,
Bill
Bottomline: My beloved 2002 996 Cab w/6 Speed manual suffered a catastrophic engine failure at 72,000 miles when the cam chain suddenly broke under a no-load condition. The engine grenaded.
I've sold my car as a roller and will be looking to buy a 997.2 (I've been warned that the 997.1 has the same engine/problems as my '02 Cab).
My requirements will include it being a cabriolet with 6/speed manual tranny. I'll be reading this forum carefully and try to avoid as many "areas of concern" as possible.
As one 996 forum member said recently, "997 owners only talk about DRIVING their cars. 996 owners talk about their cars BLOWING UP."
Hope to be back in action soon. Any specific problem areas to be especially careful of with the 997.2?
Cheers,
Bill
09-04-2018 | 01:37 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,968
Likes: 219
I wouldn't throw the 996 and 997.1 crowd under the bus so quickly. You got almost 17 years out of that motor. If I've learned anything about these cars, I've learned you can't judge them by low usage (i.e. miles) alone. Now onto the newer 997.2 cars... Here is a quote from Flat 6 Innovations regarding the newer 9A1 motor.
The 9a1 platform has proven to be a much better engine than the predecessor. That said, we have had a steady stream of the internal work coming through our doors since we completed the first engine back in 2010. Over the past 18 months we have seen a big increase in the demand for the 9a1. Today it makes up abput 1/2 of our workload, rather than the 10-20% that it used to. Part of this is due to some cars seeing high mileage and simply suffering from normal wear. Another portion of from those seeking more power from a 4.0, or a 4.2, etc.
We’ve only found a handful of failure modes for this engine platform, but we seem to see the same ones over and over, with the same circumstances. The factory played things smarter with these engines, and warranty/ goodwill compared to the predecessor. We’ve also only shared one of the modes of failure that we’ve seen, which is a completely different scenario than we did with the predecessor. More of these engines have come to us with cylinder failures than any other mode of failure. Actually, the failure of the cylinder is typically collateral damage, but is seldom identified as such.
These are very good engines, failure with them seems to be the exception, and not the rule at the current point of time in service. By this point with the M96 we’d already noted 20 different modes of failure, so this engine is much, much better in many ways. We do learn new things every day, and as we see more and more of these engines with their guts exposed we will continue to add to the knowledge base.
I think with this one, the original poster just had a stroke of bad luck. Luck plays a key role.
We’ve only found a handful of failure modes for this engine platform, but we seem to see the same ones over and over, with the same circumstances. The factory played things smarter with these engines, and warranty/ goodwill compared to the predecessor. We’ve also only shared one of the modes of failure that we’ve seen, which is a completely different scenario than we did with the predecessor. More of these engines have come to us with cylinder failures than any other mode of failure. Actually, the failure of the cylinder is typically collateral damage, but is seldom identified as such.
These are very good engines, failure with them seems to be the exception, and not the rule at the current point of time in service. By this point with the M96 we’d already noted 20 different modes of failure, so this engine is much, much better in many ways. We do learn new things every day, and as we see more and more of these engines with their guts exposed we will continue to add to the knowledge base.
I think with this one, the original poster just had a stroke of bad luck. Luck plays a key role.
Last edited by NuttyProfessor; 09-04-2018 at 02:13 PM.
09-04-2018 | 01:46 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 5,274
Likes: 1,286
Running hard from cold appears to be the cause of cylinder failures. Warm the oil up fully before loading the motor. Easy enough and common sense.
116K miles on mine and no problems. Many others on this Forum will concur.
2009s had high pressure fuel pump worries in some cases.
Bruce in Philly posted on gearbox oil and you will probably want to search for that.
Good luck with your search.
116K miles on mine and no problems. Many others on this Forum will concur.
2009s had high pressure fuel pump worries in some cases.
Bruce in Philly posted on gearbox oil and you will probably want to search for that.
Good luck with your search.
09-04-2018 | 02:17 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 643
Likes: 194
From: Connecticut
Running hard from cold appears to be the cause of cylinder failures. Warm the oil up fully before loading the motor. Easy enough and common sense.
116K miles on mine and no problems. Many others on this Forum will concur.
2009s had high pressure fuel pump worries in some cases.
Bruce in Philly posted on gearbox oil and you will probably want to search for that.
Good luck with your search.
116K miles on mine and no problems. Many others on this Forum will concur.
2009s had high pressure fuel pump worries in some cases.
Bruce in Philly posted on gearbox oil and you will probably want to search for that.
Good luck with your search.
What is "fully warmed"? I do not rev over 4k and no WOT unless the oil temp is off the bottom reading of 150deg. Must I wait until 175 or 200 before safe?
09-04-2018 | 02:45 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,274
Likes: 149
From: Victoria, Texas
09-04-2018 | 02:48 PM
#6
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,039
Likes: 4
From: Orlando
Before you discount the 997.1 I'd define which issues you are referring to? The only one I'm aware of is the IMS but that only affects 2005 model year 997's. It was fixed after that. And I did see your thread, blows...no pun intended.
09-04-2018 | 03:20 PM
#7
RL Community Team
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,361
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From: Philadelphia
2009 C2S 127K miles
When you have an engine blow (two for me!), you look at the world differently..... no way I was going to buy that M96/M97 engine design. It has multiple failure modes. I could care less about the stats, a particular year/serial number as OK, "fix" options, or voodoo bead preventative belief systems. So you got 300K miles on your 2005? All it takes is one bullet in the chamber and I took two. Am I right or wrong? I don't care what anyone thinks about my bias.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
When you have an engine blow (two for me!), you look at the world differently..... no way I was going to buy that M96/M97 engine design. It has multiple failure modes. I could care less about the stats, a particular year/serial number as OK, "fix" options, or voodoo bead preventative belief systems. So you got 300K miles on your 2005? All it takes is one bullet in the chamber and I took two. Am I right or wrong? I don't care what anyone thinks about my bias.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
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09-04-2018 | 03:44 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,968
Likes: 219
2009 C2S 127K miles
When you have an engine blow (two for me!), you look at the world differently..... no way I was going to buy that M96/M97 engine design. It has multiple failure modes. I could care less about the stats, a particular year/serial number as OK, "fix" options, or voodoo bead preventative belief systems. So you got 300K miles on your 2005? All it takes is one bullet in the chamber and I took two. Am I right or wrong? I don't care what anyone thinks about my bias.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
When you have an engine blow (two for me!), you look at the world differently..... no way I was going to buy that M96/M97 engine design. It has multiple failure modes. I could care less about the stats, a particular year/serial number as OK, "fix" options, or voodoo bead preventative belief systems. So you got 300K miles on your 2005? All it takes is one bullet in the chamber and I took two. Am I right or wrong? I don't care what anyone thinks about my bias.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
09-04-2018 | 03:59 PM
#9
Drifting
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,084
Likes: 517
From: Toronto
2009 C2S 127K miles
When you have an engine blow (two for me!), you look at the world differently..... no way I was going to buy that M96/M97 engine design. It has multiple failure modes. I could care less about the stats, a particular year/serial number as OK, "fix" options, or voodoo bead preventative belief systems. So you got 300K miles on your 2005? All it takes is one bullet in the chamber and I took two. Am I right or wrong? I don't care what anyone thinks about my bias.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
When you have an engine blow (two for me!), you look at the world differently..... no way I was going to buy that M96/M97 engine design. It has multiple failure modes. I could care less about the stats, a particular year/serial number as OK, "fix" options, or voodoo bead preventative belief systems. So you got 300K miles on your 2005? All it takes is one bullet in the chamber and I took two. Am I right or wrong? I don't care what anyone thinks about my bias.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
09-04-2018 | 07:29 PM
#11
RL Community Team
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Joined: Dec 2012
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From: Philadelphia
Anywho, if you had two engines fail of this design, would you buy another?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
09-04-2018 | 08:59 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,340
Likes: 188
From: Texas
I have heard this before... for those incorrectly using stats, I would be the "lucky penny". The problem with this is it assumes there is no more information available and that all engines are equal. In this flat world, it is possible that someone will blow every new engine they install. Because this is a statistical possibility, you can't draw any conclusion from this unlucky penny. BS.
Anywho, if you had two engines fail of this design, would you buy another?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Anywho, if you had two engines fail of this design, would you buy another?
Peace
Bruce in Philly
09-04-2018 | 09:29 PM
#14
RL Community Team
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 26,418
Likes: 6,829
From: Clemson, SC
OP, the timing chain failure of your 02 used a different design than any 997. I believe yours was a 5 chain motor where the chains were more numerous and thinner vs the 3 chain motor of any M97 engine designation. Do you know whether your timing chain broke due to a failed chain tensioner, worn paddle (guide) or some other reason.
There are only two weak spots to the newer 9A1 motor - one is the length vs strength of the timing chains and the other is l that they're not immune from bore scoring, but neither of these failures are happening anywhere near as frequently as they did with the previous engine design. Guys like Wayne and Bruce have been driving the heck out of their .2s without any issues, and I'd say you can be pretty confident that if you find one of these that checks out on the PPI, it will serve you well.
Personally, I have two 05 C2S cars, both larger IMS bearing versions. My wife's has 103k miles and mine about 1/2 that but my miles get spread out over 5 other cars.
There are only two weak spots to the newer 9A1 motor - one is the length vs strength of the timing chains and the other is l that they're not immune from bore scoring, but neither of these failures are happening anywhere near as frequently as they did with the previous engine design. Guys like Wayne and Bruce have been driving the heck out of their .2s without any issues, and I'd say you can be pretty confident that if you find one of these that checks out on the PPI, it will serve you well.
Personally, I have two 05 C2S cars, both larger IMS bearing versions. My wife's has 103k miles and mine about 1/2 that but my miles get spread out over 5 other cars.
09-05-2018 | 12:14 AM
#15
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 227
Likes: 15
From: Alabama