View Poll Results: Is the 911 a Sports Car?
Yes
113
91.13%
No
11
8.87%
Voters: 124. You may not vote on this poll
Is a 911 a sports car?
03-14-2018, 10:19 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
No doubt when you were born will influence your answer. To me a true Sports car needs to be Raw and Visceral void of GT characteristics or electronic aids. Its purpose and focus is to excite and connect you to the road as much as possible comfort takes a back seat to a thrilling experience. A fast car but not a race car for the street. Analog and mechanical linkages vs drive by wire, PSM or any aids or nannies. The early 911's I consider Sports cars and started to change by the time the 993 came about. The focus started to lean towards the GT that is now missing from the lineup with the loss of the 928. Which I consider a GT with sports car overtones. The 993 was more of a 50/50 split and by the time the 996 was introduced more GT than Sports car. The newer GT3's aren't IMO sports car as much as race cars for the street creating an entirely different category leaning more towards the hyper cars.
Maybe the term is no longer applicable except for a select few which we are seeing less and less of. Unlike the day when it was coined and cars fell into 4 categories. Race, sport, GT and sedan. There are so many categories of cars today and IMO there are very few cars that qualify as a true sports cars although the 911 is a sporty car I don't categorize the newer 911's as true sports cars. No doubt in this day and age it was necessary to make these changes and I have no interest in driving a true sports car as a DD. Just my $.02 worth.
Maybe the term is no longer applicable except for a select few which we are seeing less and less of. Unlike the day when it was coined and cars fell into 4 categories. Race, sport, GT and sedan. There are so many categories of cars today and IMO there are very few cars that qualify as a true sports cars although the 911 is a sporty car I don't categorize the newer 911's as true sports cars. No doubt in this day and age it was necessary to make these changes and I have no interest in driving a true sports car as a DD. Just my $.02 worth.
03-14-2018, 10:44 AM
#32
RL Community Team
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Rennlist Member
No doubt when you were born will influence your answer. To me a true Sports car needs to be Raw and Visceral void of GT characteristics or electronic aids. Its purpose and focus is to excite and connect you to the road as much as possible comfort takes a back seat to a thrilling experience. A fast car but not a race car for the street. Analog and mechanical linkages vs drive by wire, PSM or any aids or nannies. The early 911's I consider Sports cars and started to change by the time the 993 came about. The focus started to lean towards the GT that is now missing from the lineup with the loss of the 928. Which I consider a GT with sports car overtones. The 993 was more of a 50/50 split and by the time the 996 was introduced more GT than Sports car. The newer GT3's aren't IMO sports car as much as race cars for the street creating an entirely different category leaning more towards the hyper cars.
Maybe the term is no longer applicable except for a select few which we are seeing less and less of. Unlike the day when it was coined and cars fell into 4 categories. Race, sport, GT and sedan. There are so many categories of cars today and IMO there are very few cars that qualify as a true sports cars although the 911 is a sporty car I don't categorize the newer 911's as true sports cars. No doubt in this day and age it was necessary to make these changes and I have no interest in driving a true sports car as a DD. Just my $.02 worth.
Maybe the term is no longer applicable except for a select few which we are seeing less and less of. Unlike the day when it was coined and cars fell into 4 categories. Race, sport, GT and sedan. There are so many categories of cars today and IMO there are very few cars that qualify as a true sports cars although the 911 is a sporty car I don't categorize the newer 911's as true sports cars. No doubt in this day and age it was necessary to make these changes and I have no interest in driving a true sports car as a DD. Just my $.02 worth.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
03-14-2018, 10:48 AM
#33
Administrator - "Tyson"
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You might want to look up the likes of Peter Egan and Brock Yates.
Jack Baruth, the author of this article, races in the NASA, Koni Challenge, and Skip Barber Mazdaspeed Series.
Correct. The 911 evolved into a GT, that's the gist of this thread.
Sports car should be defined by performance in both twisties and acceleration, seating position, sound, layout and driving pleasure. Just because a 458/488, new 911s or Huracan can shred the Ring and do it in comfort does not render any less sports car than a 348, 911 SC or a Countach.
Because a stock Miata is so slow around the 'Ring it's not a sports car?
See how *** backwards this type of thinking is?
Owners of Dodge Hellcats argue they drive sports cars. Go to the Honda forum, they think anything with an "S" or "R" on the trunk is a sports car.
A stock Nissan GTR will shred almost anything around a track, it's no more a sports car than my wife's Beetle.
Different classifications of cars exist for a reason. Don't get me started on the BS Mercedes is doing calling a 4-door a "Coupe"
Even the king of "POWER" himself Jeremy Clarkson agrees:
03-14-2018, 12:39 PM
#34
Three Wheelin'
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Posted earlier here but try to elaborate and I might be philosophical here but to me a sports car should be a sports car regardless of the manufacturing date. They should be compared to their equals from the same time period.
Of cause technology changes and thereby reference points so in 10 years it will be even more electronics and computers. It's unavoidable.
A sports car has to be track worthy built for (developed for) and capable for track use.
I don't see many high volume produced cars fulfilling that category. If 95% of their content and design from the start is aimed at being a practical family or road car for the general driver it doesn't qualify according to me. Putting an R or even AMG or M badge doesn't make it a sports car in my opinion.
Of cause technology changes and thereby reference points so in 10 years it will be even more electronics and computers. It's unavoidable.
A sports car has to be track worthy built for (developed for) and capable for track use.
I don't see many high volume produced cars fulfilling that category. If 95% of their content and design from the start is aimed at being a practical family or road car for the general driver it doesn't qualify according to me. Putting an R or even AMG or M badge doesn't make it a sports car in my opinion.
03-14-2018, 12:43 PM
#35
IMO that jumps the shark and moves us to the next question, what makes a manual transmission in today's world?
I remember when the first "flappy paddle" cars hit the streets, people like Jeremy Clarkson drew the line at how the system shifted.
For example, the Aston Martin at the time was still controlled by a torque converter (was lazy to shift, slower to control) compared to the F355 which was simply a hydraulic system operating the same clutch as the manual.
Or do we stay completely "old school" and you must be doing everything 100% manually in order for it to be considered a manual?
Yes these conversations get a bit silly and nit-picky, but that's where the fun is!! Nothing like being at Siebkens at 10PM on a Friday night of a race event and everyone starts debating what is a Sports Car and what makes a manual transmission........
God help you if you mis-pronounce "Jaguar" near some well lubed British Gentleman: "No son, it's JagYOUare". Very heavy emphasis on the YOU part.
Not trying to offend anyone here, I just have very strong feelings on what makes a pure sports car & sadly generation by generation they are disappearing and even worse, under appreciated (Miata owners are teased and the Subaru BRZ threads are nothing but complaints it needs 400hp).
The modern 911 (same say started with the 996, others the 993) took a great class of car previously occupied by the 928, Ferrari 550 (and Daytona), every Aston Martin etc... and made it its own.
Heck, I remember a magazine article back in the 80's declaring the 930 wasn't a sports car, but more of a luxury rocket. It's wasn't nimble or bare bones enough to be a true sports car like the SC or Carrera. It was a niche car between real sports cars and exotics like the Countach.
Which Ferrari?
I'd argue Lamborghini has never made a sports car since the 400GT and even that was more of a luxury GT in its day compared to cars like the Ferrari GTO. Lamborghini invented the segment "Exotic" which is what all their mid-engine cars are tagged as.
The manual transmission conundrum aside, what makes a sports car hasn't evolved to me and it never should. That is what makes a sports car so special.
Even the 488GTB is borderline IMO. At almost 3,400lbs, only 18" shorter than a GMC Yukon.......
The Ferrari world has the same discussion & many feel the 355 Manual was the last of the pure Ferrari sports cars (to some the 348 since it still had manual steering & brakes).
I remember when the first "flappy paddle" cars hit the streets, people like Jeremy Clarkson drew the line at how the system shifted.
For example, the Aston Martin at the time was still controlled by a torque converter (was lazy to shift, slower to control) compared to the F355 which was simply a hydraulic system operating the same clutch as the manual.
Or do we stay completely "old school" and you must be doing everything 100% manually in order for it to be considered a manual?
Yes these conversations get a bit silly and nit-picky, but that's where the fun is!! Nothing like being at Siebkens at 10PM on a Friday night of a race event and everyone starts debating what is a Sports Car and what makes a manual transmission........
God help you if you mis-pronounce "Jaguar" near some well lubed British Gentleman: "No son, it's JagYOUare". Very heavy emphasis on the YOU part.
Not trying to offend anyone here, I just have very strong feelings on what makes a pure sports car & sadly generation by generation they are disappearing and even worse, under appreciated (Miata owners are teased and the Subaru BRZ threads are nothing but complaints it needs 400hp).
The modern 911 (same say started with the 996, others the 993) took a great class of car previously occupied by the 928, Ferrari 550 (and Daytona), every Aston Martin etc... and made it its own.
Heck, I remember a magazine article back in the 80's declaring the 930 wasn't a sports car, but more of a luxury rocket. It's wasn't nimble or bare bones enough to be a true sports car like the SC or Carrera. It was a niche car between real sports cars and exotics like the Countach.
Which Ferrari?
I'd argue Lamborghini has never made a sports car since the 400GT and even that was more of a luxury GT in its day compared to cars like the Ferrari GTO. Lamborghini invented the segment "Exotic" which is what all their mid-engine cars are tagged as.
The manual transmission conundrum aside, what makes a sports car hasn't evolved to me and it never should. That is what makes a sports car so special.
Even the 488GTB is borderline IMO. At almost 3,400lbs, only 18" shorter than a GMC Yukon.......
The Ferrari world has the same discussion & many feel the 355 Manual was the last of the pure Ferrari sports cars (to some the 348 since it still had manual steering & brakes).
Even today there are cars and brands including Aston Martin (2018), which are controlled by torque converter and there are extreme sports cars (AMG sl 65 black edition and more...) built on the torque converter and of course also Porsche (993/ 997 / 997TT TIPTRONIC S).
There is a difference between a "sports car" and a "racing car"
The world progresses ... As evidence, today, all race cars including the F1 with 2 pedals and control of transmission from the steering wheel. This is a fact.
If that were not enough, Koenigsegg took the world of transmission system another step forward ..
03-14-2018, 01:25 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
meh; too much in the weeds here. It's really like pornography, you know what it is when you see it, feel it and drive it. A 911 of any stripe is a friggin sports car. The rest is just hyperbole.
03-14-2018, 02:10 PM
#38
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Performance is absolutely astonishing these days. Look at the Ring lap times of the new 991.2 turbo and one can do that in style, with my butt AC, my comfy climate control and jamming to some Metallica on the Burmester.
Meanwhile, the old air cooled will come in from it’s lap after I finish my lap, sit down and have lunch. That driver will have the fresh aroma of oil and be a sweaty mess. Been there and done that many times . . . Pretty dang overrated and not too exciting.
03-14-2018, 02:17 PM
#39
Race Car
The 997 is a wonderful car but there should be no dispute or hurt feelings when it is pointed out that it is not a sports car. Sports cars, in general, do not have:
- (power) windows
- air conditioning
- power steering
- DVD players
- Blue tooth
- Power seats
- CD changers
- Drink holders
- Heated seats
03-14-2018, 02:41 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Lol, truth here!
Performance is absolutely astonishing these days. Look at the Ring lap times of the new 991.2 turbo and one can do that in style, with my butt AC, my comfy climate control and jamming to some Metallica on the Burmester.
Meanwhile, the old air cooled will come in from it’s lap after I finish my lap, sit down and have lunch. That driver will have the fresh aroma of oil and be a sweaty mess. Been there and done that many times . . . Pretty dang overrated and not too exciting.
Haven't seen you post in years when you had your supercharged (?) 964.
What is the point in that I don't even listen to music when driving a sports car on the road I save that for my dedicated stereo or DD (IMO Burmester is so overrated and overpriced) That is the beauty of a sports car If I wanted A/C and all that stuff I would buy a 991.2 Turbo S, amazingly capable cars but do nothing to thrill or excite me like the air cooled cars do, They drive themselves and do nothing to challenge me. It isn't about being the fastest if you're not racing it is about enjoying the experience and I extract no pleasure from driving a car like a TurboS other than it is fast. It just feels numb to me.
To each their own.
03-14-2018, 02:43 PM
#41
Administrator - "Tyson"
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My neighbors tractor has all those things, and also GPS guided cruise control.
That's exactly my point, just because X car can do Y at some track or performance data...is not what makes a sports car. It never has and never will.
So you all honestly put a Honda Civic in the same category as your 997's? The new Civic will annihilate many high performance cars from not that long ago.
Civic Type R
0-60: 4.9
1/4 mile: 13.5 @ 108
Top Speed: 170mph
Skidpad: 1.02g
That's on par with a 996 & Boxster. So based on all the arguments here, a front wheel drive, 4-door Honda Civic is a world class sports car.....just like the 911.
This actually reinforces my point. You've "grown up" and moved past wanting a sports car and upgraded to the 997 (or whatever you have).
Just because you changed your standards doesn't mean all the cars got up and moved one chair to the left with you.
What I find very interesting is how so many cannot simply let go and admit they are driving a world glass GT and not a sports car.
Mazda and Subaru build awesome sports cars that cost under $30k. Why are you all so hell bent on insisting your $100,000+ machines are in the same category?
This is what led Cobalt to start the other thread "What happened to the Sports Car" - there are not many people left who desire a bare bones, raw vehicle anymore. A few of us still do, and that's why I have a replica Cobra in the garage next to my 928's and I'm still itching to buy a BRZ.
So you all honestly put a Honda Civic in the same category as your 997's? The new Civic will annihilate many high performance cars from not that long ago.
Civic Type R
0-60: 4.9
1/4 mile: 13.5 @ 108
Top Speed: 170mph
Skidpad: 1.02g
That's on par with a 996 & Boxster. So based on all the arguments here, a front wheel drive, 4-door Honda Civic is a world class sports car.....just like the 911.
Just because you changed your standards doesn't mean all the cars got up and moved one chair to the left with you.
What I find very interesting is how so many cannot simply let go and admit they are driving a world glass GT and not a sports car.
Mazda and Subaru build awesome sports cars that cost under $30k. Why are you all so hell bent on insisting your $100,000+ machines are in the same category?
This is what led Cobalt to start the other thread "What happened to the Sports Car" - there are not many people left who desire a bare bones, raw vehicle anymore. A few of us still do, and that's why I have a replica Cobra in the garage next to my 928's and I'm still itching to buy a BRZ.
03-14-2018, 02:52 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
^^^^ didn't know you had a cobra replica. 
My friend just sold a gorgeous example and I have another friend building an all aluminum bodied precise clone from scratch. I want the car when he is done but he will never sell it.
My friend just sold a gorgeous example and I have another friend building an all aluminum bodied precise clone from scratch. I want the car when he is done but he will never sell it.
03-14-2018, 04:28 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
That's exactly my point, just because X car can do Y at some track or performance data...is not what makes a sports car. It never has and never will.
So you all honestly put a Honda Civic in the same category as your 997's? The new Civic will annihilate many high performance cars from not that long ago.
Civic Type R
0-60: 4.9
1/4 mile: 13.5 @ 108
Top Speed: 170mph
Skidpad: 1.02g
That's on par with a 996 & Boxster. So based on all the arguments here, a front wheel drive, 4-door Honda Civic is a world class sports car.....just like the 911.
So you all honestly put a Honda Civic in the same category as your 997's? The new Civic will annihilate many high performance cars from not that long ago.
Civic Type R
0-60: 4.9
1/4 mile: 13.5 @ 108
Top Speed: 170mph
Skidpad: 1.02g
That's on par with a 996 & Boxster. So based on all the arguments here, a front wheel drive, 4-door Honda Civic is a world class sports car.....just like the 911.
Valid point here. However, getting closer to what I would consider an actual sports car and this conversation would be occurring on the Lotus forum and not Rennlist. It's ok to admit that most 911 are too soft, too full of unnecessary features, too heavy, and not focused enough to be what I would consider a sports car. It's a worthwhile and interesting discussion, even if there are a bunch of cranky geezers who question it's validity. The pages of discussion proves it's a worthwhile conversation.
03-15-2018, 12:29 AM
#44
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Haven't seen you post in years when you had your supercharged (?) 964.
What is the point in that I don't even listen to music when driving a sports car on the road I save that for my dedicated stereo or DD (IMO Burmester is so overrated and overpriced) That is the beauty of a sports car If I wanted A/C and all that stuff I would buy a 991.2 Turbo S, amazingly capable cars but do nothing to thrill or excite me like the air cooled cars do, They drive themselves and do nothing to challenge me. It isn't about being the fastest if you're not racing it is about enjoying the experience and I extract no pleasure from driving a car like a TurboS other than it is fast. It just feels numb to me.
To each their own.
What is the point in that I don't even listen to music when driving a sports car on the road I save that for my dedicated stereo or DD (IMO Burmester is so overrated and overpriced) That is the beauty of a sports car If I wanted A/C and all that stuff I would buy a 991.2 Turbo S, amazingly capable cars but do nothing to thrill or excite me like the air cooled cars do, They drive themselves and do nothing to challenge me. It isn't about being the fastest if you're not racing it is about enjoying the experience and I extract no pleasure from driving a car like a TurboS other than it is fast. It just feels numb to me.
To each their own.
You have my favorite car of all time. I still miss my 94 3.6T and sold that sucker for $58k 15 years ago. Wish I had that one back as well.
I did enjoy driving my 2006 Elise, but it had Ohlins, slicks, lexan windows, carbon fibre clam, roll bar, light weight wheels and rotors, no cat, stage II exhaust, intake . . . all in all about 100 pound lighter and 25 hp more than stock. I think I enjoyed driving it more than perhaps my 996 and 997 Cup cars back then.
I understand what you guys are saying and had great fun racing slow **** spec momentum cars on technical tracks from time to time, but once you have gone fast on the race track there is no going back and no substitute for speed that goes along with that great handling.
03-15-2018, 12:41 AM
#45
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So you all honestly put a Honda Civic in the same category as your 997's? The new Civic will annihilate many high performance cars from not that long ago.
Civic Type R
0-60: 4.9
1/4 mile: 13.5 @ 108
Top Speed: 170mph
Skidpad: 1.02g
That's on par with a 996 & Boxster. So based on all the arguments here, a front wheel drive, 4-door Honda Civic is a world class sports car.....just like the 911.
This actually reinforces my point. You've "grown up" and moved past wanting a sports car and upgraded to the 997 (or whatever you have).
No 997 here. My cars are in the signature line thingy below, but I am currently looking for a 997.2 GTS aero kit at the moment to put back . . . yup another one of those "GT"S that will run circles around those old stinky air cooleds.