rmc1148

Its amazing to see the converts on pricing, just a year ago most were saying prices would never rise and I was crazy to ask 50s for mine. I'm happy and not the least surprised to see them going up and hope to bolster that when I find my next. The 99tt will not be another 944-914 = that is already obvious. That said I love the 944-928 etc.

champignon

I don't think it is surprising that prices on a 996 Turbo are going up, a bit. Car resale prices are always going to be related to at least several factors, including the strength of the economy at a particular moment, disposable income of potential buyers, demographics of the buying population, and supply and demand of both the car in question and competing vehicles. This is independent of the market for rare and collectible vehicles, which is much smaller and much more specialized niche market.

Consider what the buyer of a used Porsche is confronted with right now:

(1) Air Cooled models are ultra expensive and do not offer the performance of the more modern vehicles;

(2) Everything Porsche manufactured between around 1998 and 2005, other than Turbo models, was exposed to significant IMS bearing risk. Models manufactured in 2006-2008 were exposed to some IMS risk. Some of the effected cars have had IMS bearing replacements/modifications, however there remains confusion and controversy over the effectiveness and duration of these remediations.

(3) More modern Porsche prices are absurdly high, in the view of many potential buyers.

So, if you have 996 and 997.1 vehicles exposed to IMS risk, those cars are less desirable. 997.2 vehicles were fewer in number, newer, and much more expensive in the current resale market. There is some crossover with the Cayman, especially the Cayman S market, and the same factors are at play with 2006-2008 cars, and more recent vehicles available as used cars.

997 Turbo prices are considerably higher on average than 996 Turbo prices.

So someone wanting a Porsche without IMS risk, hopefully with a fair amount of power, at a "reasonable" price, are pushed towards the pool of available 996 Turbos for a lot of obvious reasons, not the least of which is value for money. With more people chasing these cars, and with potentially competing cars such as 997 Turbos increasing in price, it is just basic economics to see the price of "driver" level 996 turbos going up. But this upward movement will be capped by the price of alternative vehicles available, and I would guess that above $55K, there is going to be a lot of resistance felt.

But this was not the point of the way that this thread started, which was addressing a very low mileage vehicle being offered at $80K. That type of vehicle is an outlier, it is not being sold into the same market that the vast majority of these used 996 Turbos occupy. And the pricing behavior of the driver type vehicles does not necessarily have much bearing on the small collector market that may exist. For that collector market, the 996 Turbo will probably always be a weak sister to the other more modern and/or collectible turbo cars that Porsche has manufactured over the years.

Just my opinion.

manimal

Once again, I think most of us would agree with most of what you say -- but you're still trying to make a couple contradictory points that don't make sense.

Even above $55k, what is a viable alternative?

I also don't understand the "weak sister" argument -- there will always be more expensive cars. No one is arguing that 996 Turbos will be more than 73 RS's or 930's. But as you presented yourself, the rising tide raises all ships. To which your original point (whatever it was -- that Porsche guys are dicks?) seemed contradictory.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure we're all agreeing, which is also what we've all been trying to say.

champignon

Only some Porsche guys are dicks :-) Not my seller. I also negotiated with a lady, and I would not apply that label to her.

$55K for example, will buy you a brand new BMW M2, or in the resale market, probably a 1M. It will buy you a helluva nice used Cayman S of much more recent vintage with fewer miles on the clock.

There are many other comparisons.

I would not assume for a moment that a potential buyer of a 15 year old used 996 Porsche Turbo would not consider that some of the competing qualities of a new M2, for example, would not counterbalance whatever you or I might think the virtues of a 15 year old Porsche Turbo are.

manimal

1M's and M2's are awesome (other than the Active Sound Design -- GTFO with that garbage), and I agree that there is surely a large overlap in enthusiasts who would enjoy both those cars and 996TT's. As you obviously know first hand, however, they are VERY different cars in their nature (what do they have in common other than being performance-oriented German cars?), so I would disagree that they are a similar substitute.

Berra

Two very different cars, the M2 and the 996 Turbo...but, the M2 is one damn good car!

champignon

They don't have to be that similar to be competing for the same buyers. I have more cars than most people (6), so I can afford to indulge my fantasies, within reason, and to have a selection of cars. Most people who would consider buying a vintage Porsche or a new M2, for example, will either use them as DDs, or they will have one other car that they use for everyday use and one "fun" car. A lot of people just go through cars, keeping them for maybe a year and then reselling, in order to buy another "fun" car. So I think all of these fun, performance, driver's cars are competing with each other, at least at some level.

As to active sound, I assume you are referring to the fake engine noises coming through the stereo in the M2 (not present in the 1M, or any of the E8x 1-series vehicles). My Golf R has a "soundicator," which is another type of fake engine noise produced for the cabin. My business partner, who is much younger than myself and of French extraction, drove my Golf R a few weeks ago, and he insisted in putting the car into the "sport" setting. I had forgotten that the sport setting has the Soundicator turned all the way up. So my friend is driving the car and its going VROOM VROOOOOOM VROOOOOM, and of course it is a relatively fun car to drive, AWD and 292 HP and all. He said, "this is AWESOME!!!!" Then I realized he was getting off on the fake engine noise and I told him it was 100% FAKE. It's actually slightly convincing in the R, but I've never heard it in the M2, being as I have never been in one.

champignon

I need to take a picture of my new (to me) turbo and my 1M together.

Jeff_DML

I will sidetrack, my turbo with my last M(e36). Had a E90 before that.

Berra

Great great car the 1M, I will get one asap!

Another awesome duo, love the M3 E36. I wish I could find a 3,2 Sedan in mint condition!

champignon

You might not love this one:

BioBanker

All nice cars the 1M, M2 and newer Cayman S, but I think that it would be pretty tough to swap out a 996TT for one of those - sure the 996TT is less modern but it's a different class if car regardless. If your 996TT was modded with the typical bolt ons and a tune, those cars will feel gutless also.

Maybe someone who is thinking about those cars looks at a 996TT because its in a similarish price range, but if they're looking for something like a 996Tt they're unlikely to end up with one of those also great cars. I think a different buyer. One is looking to buy an older higher end car that's amazing value for the performance but will have higher maintenance and hassels because it's an older car, and the other one wants the performance but in a newer more hassle free package. Someone who wants an M2 isn't also going to look at a 15 year old car instead.

champignon

The reality is that there is an incredible amount of "turnover" with these older performance/sports cars. The first owner may have leased or owned the car for several years, sometimes the 2nd owner keeps the car a while, also. Most of the time, once this sort of car gets beyond its second owner, the average period of ownership can't possibly be longer than a couple of years, for each subsequent owner. I say this as someone who has bought and sold a number of vintage BMWs, and who recently concluded a longer than 2 month search culminating in my own purchase of a 966 TT last Thursday. During this recent search for Porsches, I considered 30 or 40 vehicles and examined Carfaxs and in some cases Autocheck reports on all of them.

You and I may not be like these typical buyers, and we might keep our vehicles much longer (I do).

Generally speaking, most people who buy a 966 TT at this point in its aging cycle, are essentially doing a 1-2 year long extended rental. When we speak of a buyer comparing one vehicle to another, we have to consider that neither the buyer him or herself, nor the vehicle marketplace, are static. They buyer may buy a 996 TT and keep it for a year, then his girlfriend or wife gets pregnant and he sells it in order to buy an SUV. A few years later he may come back into the market and buy another sports car, this time fitting his new personal or family circumstance.

All that I am saying is that there are lots of choices out there once one gets up into the $50K plus sports car marketplace, both used and new. People will buy whatever seems the best option, to them, at a given time, and the more options there are out there, the less any particular car will rise above the pack and be the clear cut choice.

manimal

I hope you don't do this to all of the threads about 996TT's, here on the 996TT forum.

Agree to disagree that any car in the ~$50k range is in the same class as a 996TT.

Berra

He said that people will buy the best option at the given time, not that all 50k cars are in the same class as the 996 Turbo.

I know people that would never touch a 996 Turbo just because it's an old car, they always want new machines, even if they are slower or whatever the reason.

M2 is a BETTER car than the Turbo in some ways, and if you want performance on a track, its a winner compared to a 996 Turbo. Not everyone wants to mod their cars.

New cars come with a warranty etc, and some want that.

When I was in the market for my Turbo, I looked at other cars for the same amount of money. GT-R, C6 Z06, M5 F10, M3 F80 etc but ended up buying the Turbo because of its mint condition and the fact that it's a Porsche Turbo, and I love it. It's been 17 years since it came out and still has lots of power and performance to this day. Porsches are ahead of their time.