HELP: Are upgraded turbos and GIAC systems such as EVO Motorsports completely safe?
11-15-2003, 02:28 PM
#31
Not from me. Just because you may build some of these engines, does not mean you are been challenged. Why then are you building these engines? Are you making them stronger? Well, maybe thats what I was discussing. If these engines are been converted with computer upgrades only, and are touted to have 700 HP, will you say here that you feel the internals are up to it. Some others who have seen the internals do not feel as you appear to. These forums are for discussion, but when someone puts another view point, some get all twisted. Yes, I am not directly in the business, as most here are not. But we are entitled to differ, challenge, (without been personel) are we not. If we were discussing this face to face, would the conversation not be the same. I have had my go arounds with Geoffery too. He appaears to be knowledgable. I'm sure he knows alot more than I do about certain things too, as you most probably do. Just because you write something here does not make you an expert. I'm proof of that. The real proffessionals in this business are never heard from. That is a shame as we all could gain from what they know.
PorschePHD, please do not take what I said personally. I do feel that the computer upgrade business is a great way to do very little work and make large $. Lets face it. We pay for the ability, not work done. Yes someone had to do the original mapping changes. but after that its all cookie cutter stuff. Great money earner for those who do it. Then claims of huge power are made and the internals are often never changed. "Bolt on Tuners". That was my post!
PorschePHD, please do not take what I said personally. I do feel that the computer upgrade business is a great way to do very little work and make large $. Lets face it. We pay for the ability, not work done. Yes someone had to do the original mapping changes. but after that its all cookie cutter stuff. Great money earner for those who do it. Then claims of huge power are made and the internals are often never changed. "Bolt on Tuners". That was my post!
11-15-2003, 02:50 PM
#32
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I would like to know what boost is required at 3000rpm (or whatever it is) for PorschePhD's motor to produce 692lb/ft of torque - 941NM is a truly massive number for one of these motors, as far as I know none of the German Tuners can get close to this even with the FULLY built out race motors. The boost required would heat everything up soooo much that maintaining the torque curve any further would be against the laws of physics unless some very special componentry is employed - please educate me -thanks
11-15-2003, 04:42 PM
#33
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Stephen,
I think you are fortunate to not have had any problems with your motor.
I do not know how you drive, but I tend to pound my cars hard, especially up the canyons every single day, with full boost on and off about 10-15 times on the way up. I also hit full boost for 5-10 second periods about another 10-15 times a day.
In my opinion, over time the internals of the motor are not strong enough to handle this kind of power.
However, when I can get Neil Harvey of Performance Developments to blueprint my engine, I will tell you his opinion. I believe he is one of the best Porsche race motor builders in the world.
I think you are fortunate to not have had any problems with your motor.
I do not know how you drive, but I tend to pound my cars hard, especially up the canyons every single day, with full boost on and off about 10-15 times on the way up. I also hit full boost for 5-10 second periods about another 10-15 times a day.
In my opinion, over time the internals of the motor are not strong enough to handle this kind of power.
However, when I can get Neil Harvey of Performance Developments to blueprint my engine, I will tell you his opinion. I believe he is one of the best Porsche race motor builders in the world.
11-15-2003, 05:10 PM
#34
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Simon,
I take no offense to your post and certainly invite a constructive conversation. If I am reading this wrong then I certainly apologize, but the tone and nature of your post are one from an offensive point and very combative. I do what I do because I want to, not because I have to. My love for Porsches has turned into a business which I keep pure. If you follow my post then you know I am the only engine builder and tuner that post real pictures, real dyno sheets and certainly give my time freely without expectation other than to educate. I drive what I build and test more than I would like sometimes. My car is being beat to death on the dyno and the street. I live with my car on the dyno and on the street. The great thing is by doing this I have real data and instead of popping someone car under development I destroy my own. My 930 was a test bed for 4 years, daily. I am always learning and certainly love to find out something new. If we were sitting in the same room this conversation would not be much different. My questions would be the same and my responses would be "lets go to the shop, lets take a look at what I am talking about so you can see what I mean". If you do follow my post then you also know that I am the first to say that the 996TTs do need rods and I have preached this nonstop. Uses and HP will dedicate at what level. Other factors such as longevity with tuning will dictate other factors in relation to the components of the motor. Bottom line is I do not agree that at 700HP the car can not and will not sustain this abuse without a minimum of a rod change. I have turned business away from people that say they will not do that and want X power. I profile each customer and put packages together based on use and certainly their goals.
TB,
My dynos are all over these boards. I will be happy to provide you the links should you not be able to find them. I am the ONLY engine builder/tuner that has actually posted consistent dyno sheets. Please let me know if I can help. Heat and efficiency in the the turbo have as much to do with the design (thanks to Kevin) and programming as the genetic make of the motor. The boost level we run in the mid range is 1.2 bar and set to back off on the top end when the HP comes up we start to back TQ down. The goal is to create the most drivability without popping something or causing prolonged stress. You can have your cake and have to decide when to eat it and how. Everything is a trade off. There are more components to our kits and as I said depends on some many factors.
Tyson,
I am not fortunate, rather well informed and take an offense stand with my car. I drive the hell out of my car in every condition imaginable. From rush hour to a hour trip on the highway daily, track, strip and still take my boys to school. It is all in the mix. It is my goal to hit another 15K and do a tear down. I will be the first to admit when I am wrong. So far the mileage I have is unparalleled in the industry or among owners or even other tuners. Hopefully one day someone will use this information rather than question my validity because I have a fancy website.
I take no offense to your post and certainly invite a constructive conversation. If I am reading this wrong then I certainly apologize, but the tone and nature of your post are one from an offensive point and very combative. I do what I do because I want to, not because I have to. My love for Porsches has turned into a business which I keep pure. If you follow my post then you know I am the only engine builder and tuner that post real pictures, real dyno sheets and certainly give my time freely without expectation other than to educate. I drive what I build and test more than I would like sometimes. My car is being beat to death on the dyno and the street. I live with my car on the dyno and on the street. The great thing is by doing this I have real data and instead of popping someone car under development I destroy my own. My 930 was a test bed for 4 years, daily. I am always learning and certainly love to find out something new. If we were sitting in the same room this conversation would not be much different. My questions would be the same and my responses would be "lets go to the shop, lets take a look at what I am talking about so you can see what I mean". If you do follow my post then you also know that I am the first to say that the 996TTs do need rods and I have preached this nonstop. Uses and HP will dedicate at what level. Other factors such as longevity with tuning will dictate other factors in relation to the components of the motor. Bottom line is I do not agree that at 700HP the car can not and will not sustain this abuse without a minimum of a rod change. I have turned business away from people that say they will not do that and want X power. I profile each customer and put packages together based on use and certainly their goals.
TB,
My dynos are all over these boards. I will be happy to provide you the links should you not be able to find them. I am the ONLY engine builder/tuner that has actually posted consistent dyno sheets. Please let me know if I can help. Heat and efficiency in the the turbo have as much to do with the design (thanks to Kevin) and programming as the genetic make of the motor. The boost level we run in the mid range is 1.2 bar and set to back off on the top end when the HP comes up we start to back TQ down. The goal is to create the most drivability without popping something or causing prolonged stress. You can have your cake and have to decide when to eat it and how. Everything is a trade off. There are more components to our kits and as I said depends on some many factors.
Tyson,
I am not fortunate, rather well informed and take an offense stand with my car. I drive the hell out of my car in every condition imaginable. From rush hour to a hour trip on the highway daily, track, strip and still take my boys to school. It is all in the mix. It is my goal to hit another 15K and do a tear down. I will be the first to admit when I am wrong. So far the mileage I have is unparalleled in the industry or among owners or even other tuners. Hopefully one day someone will use this information rather than question my validity because I have a fancy website.
11-15-2003, 05:36 PM
#35
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Stephen, it's too bad you are so far away. I really want to see how your car compares to mine prior to opening up the motor.
After my motor is built out, it won't be a fair comparison.
After my motor is built out, it won't be a fair comparison.
11-15-2003, 08:01 PM
#37
PorschePhD,
So what are you saying? I commented,(however you took it) that the performance numbers often quoted here are over and beyond what these engines can handle. We seem to agree. I also commented on the fact that some of the computer upgraders tout these numbers in their sales pitches. I have been pitched these numbers by 2 Giac dealers. When asked about the internals the reply is always nope, we have not had any problems to date, etc etc. I have eluded to the fact that probably neither of these companies have even opened up a 996 engine. According to a friend who works at a dealer, Porsche is now starting to do an engine class for the 996. Are parts available through the dealerships yet for these engines?
So my comments about computer upgrades been great for the bottom line are not out of line. If you take offense I'm sorry. None meant. Just questioning the motives of some Tuners, and the real use of these 700 HP engines.
So what are you saying? I commented,(however you took it) that the performance numbers often quoted here are over and beyond what these engines can handle. We seem to agree. I also commented on the fact that some of the computer upgraders tout these numbers in their sales pitches. I have been pitched these numbers by 2 Giac dealers. When asked about the internals the reply is always nope, we have not had any problems to date, etc etc. I have eluded to the fact that probably neither of these companies have even opened up a 996 engine. According to a friend who works at a dealer, Porsche is now starting to do an engine class for the 996. Are parts available through the dealerships yet for these engines?
So my comments about computer upgrades been great for the bottom line are not out of line. If you take offense I'm sorry. None meant. Just questioning the motives of some Tuners, and the real use of these 700 HP engines.
11-15-2003, 08:38 PM
#38
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Simon,
Now we are getting somewhere. While I may be a GIAC dealer and have access to all of the programs that does not mean that we all follow the same order of assembly. I offer something to the crowd and that is I come from the engine building side then EFI conversions and now in to the 996TT tuning side. I have lost many sales because the levels of which some cars have been built I feel need rods and will not take the job unless it is done. By doing so out prices some of my conversions over others. The need for internals on some builds is a necessity. I am not a cookie cutter tuner. I am someone that proudly puts their name on something and when I do that it has to be the whole package. Period. I have been building Porsche motors for 10+years.
The dealers are now getting into the builds, but some have been doing them for a year. Funny thing is if someone has been in the lower end there are many, and I mean many things that you can get right off the shelf. Parts we have used for years. Hell, the TB is from the Boxster and the intake is the fiber 964 version. No joke. Many of the other things share the same heritage. So while Porsche may put a 996 number on it, it is from anther vintage. I was floored when looking at the lower end how at home I felt. The tools alone are hard to get and very expensive. The majority of the tools are the cam tools. Not hard, just very important things are set at the right point when the assembly is locked back down. The 996 NA cars are a whole different issue which do include the oil issue for the crank. The 996TT does not have this problem.
Now we are getting somewhere. While I may be a GIAC dealer and have access to all of the programs that does not mean that we all follow the same order of assembly. I offer something to the crowd and that is I come from the engine building side then EFI conversions and now in to the 996TT tuning side. I have lost many sales because the levels of which some cars have been built I feel need rods and will not take the job unless it is done. By doing so out prices some of my conversions over others. The need for internals on some builds is a necessity. I am not a cookie cutter tuner. I am someone that proudly puts their name on something and when I do that it has to be the whole package. Period. I have been building Porsche motors for 10+years.
The dealers are now getting into the builds, but some have been doing them for a year. Funny thing is if someone has been in the lower end there are many, and I mean many things that you can get right off the shelf. Parts we have used for years. Hell, the TB is from the Boxster and the intake is the fiber 964 version. No joke. Many of the other things share the same heritage. So while Porsche may put a 996 number on it, it is from anther vintage. I was floored when looking at the lower end how at home I felt. The tools alone are hard to get and very expensive. The majority of the tools are the cam tools. Not hard, just very important things are set at the right point when the assembly is locked back down. The 996 NA cars are a whole different issue which do include the oil issue for the crank. The 996TT does not have this problem.
11-16-2003, 12:44 AM
#39
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11-16-2003, 01:32 AM
#40
RL Technical Advisor
PorschePhd said:
"I am the only engine builder and tuner that post real pictures, real dyno sheets and certainly
give my time freely without expectation other than to educate".
Uhhhhhhhhh,.........not quite,....
"I am the only engine builder and tuner that post real pictures, real dyno sheets and certainly
give my time freely without expectation other than to educate".
Uhhhhhhhhh,.........not quite,....
11-16-2003, 01:39 AM
#41
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Originally posted by PorschePhD
Hey Tyson, how do I drive
Here is one of my old creations 
Twin Turbo
Hey Tyson, how do I drive
Here is one of my old creations Twin Turbo
Evan
11-16-2003, 01:51 AM
#42
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Steve you certainly do educate us with your vast history and knowledge. However what I am trying to point out is that a there are a lot of tuners and engine builders that just take money without posting the results for public scrutiny.
11-16-2003, 05:49 AM
#43
RL Technical Advisor
LOL,.........I understood your point quite well but I thought I'd offer caution about blanket statements,......
You've got a pretty wide audience here and the "surgical" approach is always more effective than the "shotgun",.....
You've got a pretty wide audience here and the "surgical" approach is always more effective than the "shotgun",.....
11-16-2003, 08:15 AM
#45
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Originally posted by PorschePhD
You are correct sir, that is why educating is so important.
You are correct sir, that is why educating is so important.
Is it possible there is something wrong with your dyno