z06801

That is not going around a corner.

Dock

You..."1 st gear has no place in any Drive other than a complete stop" (my bold).

z06801

5mph = complete stop

Dock

No it's not. "Stop" = the cessation of movement.

Did you ever take a physics class?

z06801

Yes many, I was in the physics club in high school. I'm just saying WHEN DO YOU ENTER A CORNER IN A CAYON OR ROADCOURSE OR ANY KIND OF DRIVE AT >5 mph yes if your pulling into your driveway shift to 1st gear.

Dock

If so you wouldn't have said that 5 MPH = complete stop.

I've given you plenty of examples where downshifting to 1st on a roll is the prudent thing to do.

jennifer911

Dork, I see what you’re getting at, however if I interpret your “moderately steep hill” to be about 6 to 7 percent grade, the 6 cylinder engine in your car should be able to pull from 5 to 10mph in second gear if you use an easy foot on the accelerator pedal. My first car was an ancient little 1967 MGB with all of 91 HP and it could do that. Which was a good thing because all MGs before 1968 weren’t equipped with a 1st gear synchromesh. My dad taught me how to double clutch, and I could shift it fine in the driveway, but on a wet, slippery, steep hill with truck on my tail I don’t know if I could pull it off.

After my car leaked enough oil on his shop floor, he got mad and started pulling things apart to seal it up. With the transmission out he opened it up and using bits and pieces from other cars converted it into a full synchro transmission.

If you are in a situation where you need 1st gear, (really steep hill) use it; you don’t need anyone’s permission. However I think you miss-speak when you say “ heel and toe downshift”. Are you meaning to say ‘double clutch aided shift’?

z06801

For sure Jeff, if your crawling about a parking lot or anywhere don't bog the engine, use first or what ever gear is appropriate for the speed. I was just making a instructor joke to Dock about looking though the corner and getting off the brakes earlier and sent your thread off course. You can always feel if the engine is happy or not plus better control of the car with the RPMs in the right place. Cheers

Dock

The term "heel-toe" is the generic term used to identify braking while simultaneously rev matching. The way I accomplish it is better termed "left half-right half" of my foot, as I brake with the left side of my foot and throttle blip (rev match) with the right side of my foot. I rev match on all my downshifts, including all the 2-1 downshifts I do, although not all rev matches are done while simultaneously braking.

The hill I come down prior to the turn into my neighborhood requires using the brakes to slow to the turn speed; braking all the way down to ~10 MPH. I "heel-toe" the 2-1 downshift.

The bottom line is I don't lug my engine, and the key to meeting this personal requirement is always making sure I'm in the right gear for the speed and grade of the road.

jennifer911

Ok, got ya Dock. I was confused by your post concerning grabbing 1st gear going up a hill, (at a just turned green light) so as to not hold up traffic coming up from behind. I couldn’t see why you needed to do any braking (the toe part of heel toe).

In most every car including a 911 the ratio jump between 1st and 2nd is a hugely bigger jump than between any of other the higher gears. If the transmission oil is not fully warmed up the car will balk at a downshift into 1st at anything in your stated range of 5 to 10mph. What’s happening is when you push in the clutch the input shaft and all the gear sets that are connected to it will stop turning. However, the output shaft is still being spun by the speed of the wheels. When you push the gear selector towards 1st gear the poor synchro will be tasked with trying to spin (up from a stop) a huge mass of gears + the input shaft and all the heavy things connected to it. The synchro's blocker ring will keep you from engaging the gear until the synchro cones can get all that mass up to speed. That’s why most people avoid shifting down to 1st at anything above a few mph.

Jeff_DML

yes that is the root of my question. I have been driving sticks for almost 25 years and this my first car either I need to go to first or balks at going to it. Yes I need to double clutch to get it into first. I am not doing heal toe since not doing I at speed.

So wondering if people are just not using 1st to avoid double clutching and just sort of bogging in 2nd instead.

thanks

ZX9RCAM

So, you guys use 2nd gear in small parking garages when you must go up multiple floors, & worry about cars coming from the other direction while making the turns, or backing out of a spot?

Freddie Two Bs

Dock

The 996 Turbo's 1st gear is what the biking community (human powered bikes) used to call a granny gear. But even so, it is easy to downshift to that gear if you properly rev match. That rev matching can be done while under braking ("heel-toe") or while coasting (full foot on the accelerator). And yes, the temperature of the transmission oil and transmission components can make a difference on the ease of the downshift to 1st. But certainly it is an easy downshift once everything is warmed up and if proper rev matching is done.

Once rolling in my Datsun 280Z, I used to make all shifts (both up and down) without using the clutch. But precise rev matching was required.

Regarding gear changes (either direction), I never double clutch in the 996 Turbo, as it's not required. I do though rev match as accurately as possible.

"02996ttx50

it's super easy to downshift with a rev match ( important ) into first and would ONLY stay in first while cycling upward ( or down for that matter! ) those stupid underground garage circles. thats no place to be in a gear ( 2nd ) that's good up to 60mph+ let alone lugging it up those grades even if one was ( and should be ) well within the "proper" rev range of over 1500/1700 to even BE in 2nd.

garage? 1st gear only. its still good up to 6750rpm or in my case 7200 rpm.. and in what garage are you going to test THAT rev range in 1st?

btw and not for nothin" i CONSTANTLY dbl clutch old crash box habit i suppose.. but i also understand these triple cone synchros fairly adequately, so yeah..call me old fashioned. i dbl clutch a LOT! it's even force of habit and no real extra effort although of course sequentially it does in reality require an extra pump of the pedal.