first gear
#16
I'll give you another example: On a moderately uphill road approaching a stoplight that is red. I slow down to stop, but the light turns green as I reach (for example) 5-10 MPH. There are cars behind me. Do you think I want to brake to a stop (horns of the cars behind me used to remind me that the light is green, not red), only to force myself into a dead-stop launch on a significant hill, when I can heel-toe downshift to 1st and keep rolling??
#20
Originally Posted by Dock
No it's not. "Stop" = the cessation of movement.
Did you ever take a physics class?
Did you ever take a physics class?
#22
Dork, I see what you’re getting at, however if I interpret your “moderately steep hill” to be about 6 to 7 percent grade, the 6 cylinder engine in your car should be able to pull from 5 to 10mph in second gear if you use an easy foot on the accelerator pedal. My first car was an ancient little 1967 MGB with all of 91 HP and it could do that. Which was a good thing because all MGs before 1968 weren’t equipped with a 1st gear synchromesh. My dad taught me how to double clutch, and I could shift it fine in the driveway, but on a wet, slippery, steep hill with truck on my tail I don’t know if I could pull it off.
After my car leaked enough oil on his shop floor, he got mad and started pulling things apart to seal it up. With the transmission out he opened it up and using bits and pieces from other cars converted it into a full synchro transmission.
If you are in a situation where you need 1st gear, (really steep hill) use it; you don’t need anyone’s permission. However I think you miss-speak when you say “ heel and toe downshift”. Are you meaning to say ‘double clutch aided shift’?
After my car leaked enough oil on his shop floor, he got mad and started pulling things apart to seal it up. With the transmission out he opened it up and using bits and pieces from other cars converted it into a full synchro transmission.
If you are in a situation where you need 1st gear, (really steep hill) use it; you don’t need anyone’s permission. However I think you miss-speak when you say “ heel and toe downshift”. Are you meaning to say ‘double clutch aided shift’?
#23
Originally Posted by Jeff_DML
Gearing on the TT is pretty long so I find myself want to go down into first gear. Do you MT drivers go down to first or just kind of bog in second?
I am guessing this has been discussed before but didnÂ’t find anything.
TIA
Jeff
I am guessing this has been discussed before but didnÂ’t find anything.
TIA
Jeff
#24
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The hill I come down prior to the turn into my neighborhood requires using the brakes to slow to the turn speed; braking all the way down to ~10 MPH. I "heel-toe" the 2-1 downshift.
The bottom line is I don't lug my engine, and the key to meeting this personal requirement is always making sure I'm in the right gear for the speed and grade of the road.
#25
Ok, got ya Dock. I was confused by your post concerning grabbing 1st gear going up a hill, (at a just turned green light) so as to not hold up traffic coming up from behind. I couldn’t see why you needed to do any braking (the toe part of heel toe).
In most every car including a 911 the ratio jump between 1st and 2nd is a hugely bigger jump than between any of other the higher gears. If the transmission oil is not fully warmed up the car will balk at a downshift into 1st at anything in your stated range of 5 to 10mph. What’s happening is when you push in the clutch the input shaft and all the gear sets that are connected to it will stop turning. However, the output shaft is still being spun by the speed of the wheels. When you push the gear selector towards 1st gear the poor synchro will be tasked with trying to spin (up from a stop) a huge mass of gears + the input shaft and all the heavy things connected to it. The synchro's blocker ring will keep you from engaging the gear until the synchro cones can get all that mass up to speed. That’s why most people avoid shifting down to 1st at anything above a few mph.
In most every car including a 911 the ratio jump between 1st and 2nd is a hugely bigger jump than between any of other the higher gears. If the transmission oil is not fully warmed up the car will balk at a downshift into 1st at anything in your stated range of 5 to 10mph. What’s happening is when you push in the clutch the input shaft and all the gear sets that are connected to it will stop turning. However, the output shaft is still being spun by the speed of the wheels. When you push the gear selector towards 1st gear the poor synchro will be tasked with trying to spin (up from a stop) a huge mass of gears + the input shaft and all the heavy things connected to it. The synchro's blocker ring will keep you from engaging the gear until the synchro cones can get all that mass up to speed. That’s why most people avoid shifting down to 1st at anything above a few mph.
#26
Instructor
Thread Starter
Ok, got ya Dock. I was confused by your post concerning grabbing 1st gear going up a hill, (at a just turned green light) so as to not hold up traffic coming up from behind. I couldn’t see why you needed to do any braking (the toe part of heel toe).
In most every car including a 911 the ratio jump between 1st and 2nd is a hugely bigger jump than between any of other the higher gears. If the transmission oil is not fully warmed up the car will balk at a downshift into 1st at anything in your stated range of 5 to 10mph. What’s happening is when you push in the clutch the input shaft and all the gear sets that are connected to it will stop turning. However, the output shaft is still being spun by the speed of the wheels. When you push the gear selector towards 1st gear the poor synchro will be tasked with trying to spin (up from a stop) a huge mass of gears + the input shaft and all the heavy things connected to it. The synchro's blocker ring will keep you from engaging the gear until the synchro cones can get all that mass up to speed. That’s why most people avoid shifting down to 1st at anything above a few mph.
In most every car including a 911 the ratio jump between 1st and 2nd is a hugely bigger jump than between any of other the higher gears. If the transmission oil is not fully warmed up the car will balk at a downshift into 1st at anything in your stated range of 5 to 10mph. What’s happening is when you push in the clutch the input shaft and all the gear sets that are connected to it will stop turning. However, the output shaft is still being spun by the speed of the wheels. When you push the gear selector towards 1st gear the poor synchro will be tasked with trying to spin (up from a stop) a huge mass of gears + the input shaft and all the heavy things connected to it. The synchro's blocker ring will keep you from engaging the gear until the synchro cones can get all that mass up to speed. That’s why most people avoid shifting down to 1st at anything above a few mph.
yes that is the root of my question. I have been driving sticks for almost 25 years and this my first car either I need to go to first or balks at going to it. Yes I need to double clutch to get it into first. I am not doing heal toe since not doing I at speed.
So wondering if people are just not using 1st to avoid double clutching and just sort of bogging in 2nd instead.
thanks
#27
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Spring, Texas (The Woodlands)
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So, you guys use 2nd gear in small parking garages when you must go up multiple floors, & worry about cars coming from the other direction while making the turns, or backing out of a spot?
#28
In most every car including a 911 the ratio jump between 1st and 2nd is a hugely bigger jump than between any of other the higher gears. If the transmission oil is not fully warmed up the car will balk at a downshift into 1st at anything in your stated range of 5 to 10mph. What’s happening is when you push in the clutch the input shaft and all the gear sets that are connected to it will stop turning. However, the output shaft is still being spun by the speed of the wheels. When you push the gear selector towards 1st gear the poor synchro will be tasked with trying to spin (up from a stop) a huge mass of gears + the input shaft and all the heavy things connected to it. The synchro's blocker ring will keep you from engaging the gear until the synchro cones can get all that mass up to speed.
#29
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Once rolling in my Datsun 280Z, I used to make all shifts (both up and down) without using the clutch. But precise rev matching was required.
Regarding gear changes (either direction), I never double clutch in the 996 Turbo, as it's not required. I do though rev match as accurately as possible.
#30
it's super easy to downshift with a rev match ( important ) into first and would ONLY stay in first while cycling upward ( or down for that matter! ) those stupid underground garage circles. thats no place to be in a gear ( 2nd ) that's good up to 60mph+ let alone lugging it up those grades even if one was ( and should be ) well within the "proper" rev range of over 1500/1700 to even BE in 2nd.
garage? 1st gear only. its still good up to 6750rpm or in my case 7200 rpm.. and in what garage are you going to test THAT rev range in 1st?
btw and not for nothin" i CONSTANTLY dbl clutch old crash box habit i suppose.. but i also understand these triple cone synchros fairly adequately, so yeah..call me old fashioned. i dbl clutch a LOT! it's even force of habit and no real extra effort although of course sequentially it does in reality require an extra pump of the pedal.
garage? 1st gear only. its still good up to 6750rpm or in my case 7200 rpm.. and in what garage are you going to test THAT rev range in 1st?
btw and not for nothin" i CONSTANTLY dbl clutch old crash box habit i suppose.. but i also understand these triple cone synchros fairly adequately, so yeah..call me old fashioned. i dbl clutch a LOT! it's even force of habit and no real extra effort although of course sequentially it does in reality require an extra pump of the pedal.