Alignment Frustration
07-01-2013, 10:09 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Alignment Frustration
Ok, I'm irritated. Irritated that I haven't figured out how to get this car to handle after all the money I've spent dorking with wheels, tires, alignments, sway bars, etc. When I got the car, the alignment was so jacked up, it took a couple visits just to get it close...I've been tuning it ever since.
I've spent at least $1k on alignments with cornerweighting. I just want the magic handling fairy to come and sprinkle dust on my car! Here's where I'm at today:
2003 996TT
PSS9's
GT3 Rear Sway with Tarett DL's, Stock front Bar
Stock Wheels and Tires (did away with 19"s due to ride concerns)
Fully corner weighted with my lard *** in the driver's seat
Current Settings:
Ride Height: 115mm front, 133mm back (GT2 specs), measured from offical locations
Front Camber: Maxed out, -0.9
Total Front Toe: -.35 (-.17 both sides)
Front Shock Setting: 3
Rear Camber: -1.3
Total Rear Toe: -.35
Rear Shock Setting: 7 (moved from 5 after the sway addition, it got really hard back there after)
Rear Sway Setting: Hole 2 from the rear of the car, or Hole 3 from the front
Current Bitches:
Car is scary at high speed. It feels twitchy at 100mph (when driving at those speeds in "Mexico" of course) and very unsettled. It's less so at lower speeds, but still jumpy. It was way worse before we added more negative toe today.
Front end feels really "light." This car has never felt connected to the road, almost like it's floating. It's worse under acceleration, but somewhat present all the time and worst at higher speeds.
I had a 993TT with ROW 030 suspension and that car handled fantastically. This car leans like a boat, and now that I have the rear sway bar, at least now the car doesn't push as bad, but it's still top heavy.
I need help. I know it's hard to describe, so I'm just really venting, but any advice would be great. I'm tired of throwing good money after bad chasing some handling utopia.
Ok, deep breath.
I've spent at least $1k on alignments with cornerweighting. I just want the magic handling fairy to come and sprinkle dust on my car! Here's where I'm at today:
2003 996TT
PSS9's
GT3 Rear Sway with Tarett DL's, Stock front Bar
Stock Wheels and Tires (did away with 19"s due to ride concerns)
Fully corner weighted with my lard *** in the driver's seat
Current Settings:
Ride Height: 115mm front, 133mm back (GT2 specs), measured from offical locations
Front Camber: Maxed out, -0.9
Total Front Toe: -.35 (-.17 both sides)
Front Shock Setting: 3
Rear Camber: -1.3
Total Rear Toe: -.35
Rear Shock Setting: 7 (moved from 5 after the sway addition, it got really hard back there after)
Rear Sway Setting: Hole 2 from the rear of the car, or Hole 3 from the front
Current Bitches:
Car is scary at high speed. It feels twitchy at 100mph (when driving at those speeds in "Mexico" of course) and very unsettled. It's less so at lower speeds, but still jumpy. It was way worse before we added more negative toe today.
Front end feels really "light." This car has never felt connected to the road, almost like it's floating. It's worse under acceleration, but somewhat present all the time and worst at higher speeds.
I had a 993TT with ROW 030 suspension and that car handled fantastically. This car leans like a boat, and now that I have the rear sway bar, at least now the car doesn't push as bad, but it's still top heavy.
I need help. I know it's hard to describe, so I'm just really venting, but any advice would be great. I'm tired of throwing good money after bad chasing some handling utopia.
Ok, deep breath.
07-01-2013, 10:16 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Bring it an hour south and let my tech fix your car. I have PSS9's with Rear RSS links and my car feels solid to 160+.....or so I have heard.
Call Brian Wooldridge at foreign affairs 859-309-1919.
Call Brian Wooldridge at foreign affairs 859-309-1919.
07-02-2013, 12:31 AM
#4
are you sure you have negative 'toe'? that would indicate toe-out an definitely cause the lively chassis...
07-02-2013, 10:50 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Putting it there made a huge difference in the "death wobbles" which is what I coined it when it was riding the bumpstops. Let me look at the USA specs vs. the GT2 specs and see what the real drop is from what I've got.
Sorry, it's toe'd in, at that amount. I guessed (wrongly) that Toe In would be a negative value.
07-02-2013, 11:18 AM
#6
Sorry, it's toe'd in, at that amount. I guessed (wrongly) that Toe In would be a negative value.
Some other things to think about:
-what is your front CASTER value?
-front end should have more camber than the rear end, although I don't think this is causing your 'twitchyness'
-ride height is pretty much at Porsche motorsport/Kussmaul height(112mm/130mm), perhaps too low for roads/PSS9's shock/spring package
-rear shocks probably need softening
07-02-2013, 02:31 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
-front end should have more camber than the rear end, although I don't think this is causing your 'twitchyness'
-ride height is pretty much at Porsche motorsport/Kussmaul height(112mm/130mm), perhaps too low for roads/PSS9's shock/spring package
-rear shocks probably need softening
-rear shocks probably need softening
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07-02-2013, 02:31 PM
#8
Scott,
Couple of things. No matter what the PSS9 instructions say, I would raise the car about 3/8 - 1/2" all around. Your issues stem from riding on the bump stops. At GT2 ride height you are certainly right at the bump stops especially in the front where you say you are slightly below the recommended height. If you do a quick search you will find that this is the case with the stock PSS9s. Raise the car and stiffen the shock setting in the front which will settle the porpoising a little better. Your toe and camper settings are fine and well within range. Your GT3 rear sway is not the problem as it's fairly soft to begin with unless you are at the inner most hole and I don't think that's where you have it set. I had a set of PSS9s and replaced them with the non adjustable H&R coilover kit which has more shock travel due to the fact that you don't have the adjusters in the shock itself. These work much better at GT2 ride height than the PSS9s and the valving is spot so it's a set it and forget it kit. Under $2K... The other option is to purchase stiffer springs and send your shocks to bilstein for a revalve or spend the money on some better shocks like single adjustable monotube Moton or JRZ. Price wise they are very reasonable. As a comparison, I run fairly high 600F/800R rates with my JRZs and a very stiff H&R rear sway and the ride is better than it was with either the PSS9 or the H&R. The shocks are that good even at such spring rates.. Good luck...
Couple of things. No matter what the PSS9 instructions say, I would raise the car about 3/8 - 1/2" all around. Your issues stem from riding on the bump stops. At GT2 ride height you are certainly right at the bump stops especially in the front where you say you are slightly below the recommended height. If you do a quick search you will find that this is the case with the stock PSS9s. Raise the car and stiffen the shock setting in the front which will settle the porpoising a little better. Your toe and camper settings are fine and well within range. Your GT3 rear sway is not the problem as it's fairly soft to begin with unless you are at the inner most hole and I don't think that's where you have it set. I had a set of PSS9s and replaced them with the non adjustable H&R coilover kit which has more shock travel due to the fact that you don't have the adjusters in the shock itself. These work much better at GT2 ride height than the PSS9s and the valving is spot so it's a set it and forget it kit. Under $2K... The other option is to purchase stiffer springs and send your shocks to bilstein for a revalve or spend the money on some better shocks like single adjustable monotube Moton or JRZ. Price wise they are very reasonable. As a comparison, I run fairly high 600F/800R rates with my JRZs and a very stiff H&R rear sway and the ride is better than it was with either the PSS9 or the H&R. The shocks are that good even at such spring rates.. Good luck...
07-02-2013, 02:51 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Scott,
Couple of things. No matter what the PSS9 instructions say, I would raise the car about 3/8 - 1/2" all around. Your issues stem from riding on the bump stops. At GT2 ride height you are certainly right at the bump stops especially in the front where you say you are slightly below the recommended height. If you do a quick search you will find that this is the case with the stock PSS9s. Raise the car and stiffen the shock setting in the front which will settle the porpoising a little better. Your toe and camper settings are fine and well within range. Your GT3 rear sway is not the problem as it's fairly soft to begin with unless you are at the inner most hole and I don't think that's where you have it set. I had a set of PSS9s and replaced them with the non adjustable H&R coilover kit which has more shock travel due to the fact that you don't have the adjusters in the shock itself. These work much better at GT2 ride height than the PSS9s and the valving is spot so it's a set it and forget it kit. Under $2K... The other option is to purchase stiffer springs and send your shocks to bilstein for a revalve or spend the money on some better shocks like single adjustable monotube Moton or JRZ. Price wise they are very reasonable. As a comparison, I run fairly high 600F/800R rates with my JRZs and a very stiff H&R rear sway and the ride is better than it was with either the PSS9 or the H&R. The shocks are that good even at such spring rates.. Good luck...
Couple of things. No matter what the PSS9 instructions say, I would raise the car about 3/8 - 1/2" all around. Your issues stem from riding on the bump stops. At GT2 ride height you are certainly right at the bump stops especially in the front where you say you are slightly below the recommended height. If you do a quick search you will find that this is the case with the stock PSS9s. Raise the car and stiffen the shock setting in the front which will settle the porpoising a little better. Your toe and camper settings are fine and well within range. Your GT3 rear sway is not the problem as it's fairly soft to begin with unless you are at the inner most hole and I don't think that's where you have it set. I had a set of PSS9s and replaced them with the non adjustable H&R coilover kit which has more shock travel due to the fact that you don't have the adjusters in the shock itself. These work much better at GT2 ride height than the PSS9s and the valving is spot so it's a set it and forget it kit. Under $2K... The other option is to purchase stiffer springs and send your shocks to bilstein for a revalve or spend the money on some better shocks like single adjustable monotube Moton or JRZ. Price wise they are very reasonable. As a comparison, I run fairly high 600F/800R rates with my JRZs and a very stiff H&R rear sway and the ride is better than it was with either the PSS9 or the H&R. The shocks are that good even at such spring rates.. Good luck...
07-02-2013, 02:59 PM
#10
Are you sure that you are looking in the right place?
What tires? How old are they?
What about your Aero? Are you 100% stock on your wing and nose?
I have a similar setup to you, but with JIC/Cross coils, and the car is amazing to 150 + on the track.
Tom
Stock Wheels and Tires (did away with 19"s due to ride concerns)
What about your Aero? Are you 100% stock on your wing and nose?
I have a similar setup to you, but with JIC/Cross coils, and the car is amazing to 150 + on the track.
Tom
07-02-2013, 03:21 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I'm leaning towards driving around and finding cars that are set up with happy owners, and seeing what more I can/should do. Or I'm putting it back to stock and finding a 997TT to screw up.
07-02-2013, 03:30 PM
#12
What type of tires and sizes?
FWIW I have noted big handling changes caused by weird wear patterns on tires, that are exposed by alignment changes. The tires are "worn in" with the old alignment, and with a new setup you need a few (to a few hundred) miles for the tire to adapt.
I went to a lot more neg camber (with older tires) a few years ago, and was basically riding on almost new tread blocks at the side walls till I scrubbed them off...
FWIW I have noted big handling changes caused by weird wear patterns on tires, that are exposed by alignment changes. The tires are "worn in" with the old alignment, and with a new setup you need a few (to a few hundred) miles for the tire to adapt.
I went to a lot more neg camber (with older tires) a few years ago, and was basically riding on almost new tread blocks at the side walls till I scrubbed them off...
07-02-2013, 05:32 PM
#13
Caster looks good.
factory 'street' GT2 alignment spec also caused over 25% of GT2's to be written-off/crashed
heavy initial understeer leading to snap-oversteer...
Motorsports/Kussmaul settings are:
Front Camber - 2.5 degrees
Front toe 2 mins per side
Caster 8 degrees -0+.5
Rear Camber -2.4 degrees
Rear Toe 14 mins per side -0+2. 28-32 mins total
Loaded ride height 112mm front, 130 mm rear
And most track guys have found they prefer a little more differential btw. frt/rear camber number
FWIW, my GT2 is sitting at same rear sway bar setting without issue on crap Ontario roads, but worth looking at too, as are used tires/wheel being put back on
factory 'street' GT2 alignment spec also caused over 25% of GT2's to be written-off/crashed
heavy initial understeer leading to snap-oversteer...Motorsports/Kussmaul settings are:
Front Camber - 2.5 degrees
Front toe 2 mins per side
Caster 8 degrees -0+.5
Rear Camber -2.4 degrees
Rear Toe 14 mins per side -0+2. 28-32 mins total
Loaded ride height 112mm front, 130 mm rear
And most track guys have found they prefer a little more differential btw. frt/rear camber number
FWIW, my GT2 is sitting at same rear sway bar setting without issue on crap Ontario roads, but worth looking at too, as are used tires/wheel being put back on
Caster in the front is 7.8 left, and 8.0 right (I picked up the sheet at lunch), and can't be adjusted, I don't think?
The factory and GT2 specs both show the rears having more, significantly in the GT2 spec.
I'm thinking the rear sway bar may be set too stiff for OH's crappy roads. So, by releasing a little of that, it may take some harshness out of the back.
The factory and GT2 specs both show the rears having more, significantly in the GT2 spec.
I'm thinking the rear sway bar may be set too stiff for OH's crappy roads. So, by releasing a little of that, it may take some harshness out of the back.
Last edited by 993GT; 07-02-2013 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Add
07-02-2013, 06:28 PM
#14
Scott,
Couple of things. No matter what the PSS9 instructions say, I would raise the car about 3/8 - 1/2" all around. Your issues stem from riding on the bump stops. At GT2 ride height you are certainly right at the bump stops especially in the front where you say you are slightly below the recommended height. If you do a quick search you will find that this is the case with the stock PSS9s. Raise the car and stiffen the shock setting in the front which will settle the porpoising a little better. Your toe and camper settings are fine and well within range. Your GT3 rear sway is not the problem as it's fairly soft to begin with unless you are at the inner most hole and I don't think that's where you have it set. I had a set of PSS9s and replaced them with the non adjustable H&R coilover kit which has more shock travel due to the fact that you don't have the adjusters in the shock itself. These work much better at GT2 ride height than the PSS9s and the valving is spot so it's a set it and forget it kit. Under $2K... The other option is to purchase stiffer springs and send your shocks to bilstein for a revalve or spend the money on some better shocks like single adjustable monotube Moton or JRZ. Price wise they are very reasonable. As a comparison, I run fairly high 600F/800R rates with my JRZs and a very stiff H&R rear sway and the ride is better than it was with either the PSS9 or the H&R. The shocks are that good even at such spring rates.. Good luck...
Couple of things. No matter what the PSS9 instructions say, I would raise the car about 3/8 - 1/2" all around. Your issues stem from riding on the bump stops. At GT2 ride height you are certainly right at the bump stops especially in the front where you say you are slightly below the recommended height. If you do a quick search you will find that this is the case with the stock PSS9s. Raise the car and stiffen the shock setting in the front which will settle the porpoising a little better. Your toe and camper settings are fine and well within range. Your GT3 rear sway is not the problem as it's fairly soft to begin with unless you are at the inner most hole and I don't think that's where you have it set. I had a set of PSS9s and replaced them with the non adjustable H&R coilover kit which has more shock travel due to the fact that you don't have the adjusters in the shock itself. These work much better at GT2 ride height than the PSS9s and the valving is spot so it's a set it and forget it kit. Under $2K... The other option is to purchase stiffer springs and send your shocks to bilstein for a revalve or spend the money on some better shocks like single adjustable monotube Moton or JRZ. Price wise they are very reasonable. As a comparison, I run fairly high 600F/800R rates with my JRZs and a very stiff H&R rear sway and the ride is better than it was with either the PSS9 or the H&R. The shocks are that good even at such spring rates.. Good luck...
07-02-2013, 09:39 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
if i can ask a related but slightly off topic question. i have single rebound jrz with the same spring rates you have. adj. gmg sway bars set at the top hole. if i drop the sway bar to the middle or lower hole will that soften the ride any? the 600/800 ride is teeth jarring on any kind of bumps! olsen motorsports suggested revalving the shocks but not sure of the cost is worth it for the age of the shocks or just relace everything with something like a pss10 or h&r setup