997.2 / GT2RS Intercooler Testing on my 996TT
02-13-2011, 03:14 PM
#1
997.2 / GT2RS Intercooler Testing on my 996TT
Some of you have seen this from 6speed but wanted to share with the Rennlisters.
They are bigger, the end tanks are awesome, and the fin density is insane.
Much more to follow, but at the $900 price point from Suncoast or Sonnen (less if you can find them used -thanks Champion Motorsports!), you ain't seen anything like this... Porsche did their homework folks
Part Numbers: 99711063970 & 99711064070
some pics:
top view (997.2 on top, 996 on bottom), the core is shorter (albeit thicker), but that's to make room for the end tanks:
from the side:
from the other side:
outlet end tank comparison
into the end tanks (hole diameter is the same as the 996, but hey its been to 620hp/22psi & flogged on the 'ring, good enough for me):
inlet tank (and fin density)!
996 outer fin density (not bad compared to some budget "upgrades")
997.2 outer fin density
996/997.1 core (note the open channels near the left edge)
997.2 core (better pics to come, but compare this to the budget IC options out there (if they'll give you a pic of the core), also note the full core width is used, unlike the 996/997.1 -again, getting into "aerospace" quality) You get 3.15" of actual core, as opposed to 2.25" on the 996/997.1 coolers.
Popping the end tank off, here's a core comparison (note the 14 rows vs 11 over the 996):
Stay tuned for further dissection and an on-car thermal comparison against the stock IC (997.2 on one side, 996 on the other) using a Fluke 52 dual channel, type-k thermocouple based thermometer.
They are bigger, the end tanks are awesome, and the fin density is insane.
Much more to follow, but at the $900 price point from Suncoast or Sonnen (less if you can find them used -thanks Champion Motorsports!), you ain't seen anything like this... Porsche did their homework folks
Part Numbers: 99711063970 & 99711064070
some pics:
top view (997.2 on top, 996 on bottom), the core is shorter (albeit thicker), but that's to make room for the end tanks:
from the side:
from the other side:
outlet end tank comparison
into the end tanks (hole diameter is the same as the 996, but hey its been to 620hp/22psi & flogged on the 'ring, good enough for me):
inlet tank (and fin density)!
996 outer fin density (not bad compared to some budget "upgrades")
997.2 outer fin density
996/997.1 core (note the open channels near the left edge)
997.2 core (better pics to come, but compare this to the budget IC options out there (if they'll give you a pic of the core), also note the full core width is used, unlike the 996/997.1 -again, getting into "aerospace" quality) You get 3.15" of actual core, as opposed to 2.25" on the 996/997.1 coolers.
Popping the end tank off, here's a core comparison (note the 14 rows vs 11 over the 996):
Stay tuned for further dissection and an on-car thermal comparison against the stock IC (997.2 on one side, 996 on the other) using a Fluke 52 dual channel, type-k thermocouple based thermometer.
02-13-2011, 03:15 PM
#2
Closer...
Type K thermocouple mounted in the passenger's side piping (same process for the driver's side):
Engine bay with thermocouples installed / ops check with the Fluke 52 II dual channel thermometer (calibrated to 500C with +- 1.5C accuracy and an update rate of ~2Hz). Note the water/meth nozzles on each side -this will remain off (the pump isn't even on the car yet). Pressure test was good.
Initial results are in...
Background on the test car:
01 996 TT 6 speed, ~38k miles, fresh plugs, 94 octane, K16 turbos
EPL Flash
2.5" turbo inlet pipes
Remus Exhaust
996GT2 Intercooler (same as 997.1) driver's side
997.2 Intercooler (same as GT2 RS) passenger's side
You wish you had this logging setup! hilarious (see previous posts for equipment)
Note that I am at high density altitude (~6000ft today), so to create the 2bar or so of absolute pressure that a 1 bar flash calls for, these turbos are producing ~1.3-1.5 bar at the outlets to make up for the low ambient pressure (and quickly falling out of their efficiency range) -perfect for a thermal test on intercoolers!
Type K thermocouple mounted in the passenger's side piping (same process for the driver's side):
Engine bay with thermocouples installed / ops check with the Fluke 52 II dual channel thermometer (calibrated to 500C with +- 1.5C accuracy and an update rate of ~2Hz). Note the water/meth nozzles on each side -this will remain off (the pump isn't even on the car yet). Pressure test was good.
Initial results are in...
Background on the test car:
01 996 TT 6 speed, ~38k miles, fresh plugs, 94 octane, K16 turbos
EPL Flash
2.5" turbo inlet pipes
Remus Exhaust
996GT2 Intercooler (same as 997.1) driver's side
997.2 Intercooler (same as GT2 RS) passenger's side
You wish you had this logging setup! hilarious (see previous posts for equipment)
Note that I am at high density altitude (~6000ft today), so to create the 2bar or so of absolute pressure that a 1 bar flash calls for, these turbos are producing ~1.3-1.5 bar at the outlets to make up for the low ambient pressure (and quickly falling out of their efficiency range) -perfect for a thermal test on intercoolers!
02-13-2011, 03:18 PM
#3
Initial data:
Run 1 is the full 1-4 pull to ~130mph
Run 2 is 3-4 pull (~110mph)
Run 3 is a 4th gear pull from 40~115mph
Run 4 is a 3-4 pull (~115mph)
I've included the difference (delta) in temp on the plot as well. You can draw your own conclusions as to where the trends are headed. The chart's kinda fugly but the numbers are there. In most cases, when you hit ~35C, the DME will start pulling timing & richen the mixture and ramp up from there as IAT increases. It's pretty much the same story after repeated pulls, you're looking at better than a 20C improvement (34F) once you get some load on these coolers (more as you do extended pulls).
and that, my friends, is HUGE. I would challenge any of the budget (<$1600) intercooler options out there with this cooler in thermal efficiency (any probably some higher dollar ones as well). Rest of the writeup with duct mod instructions to follow.
Run 1 is the full 1-4 pull to ~130mph
Run 2 is 3-4 pull (~110mph)
Run 3 is a 4th gear pull from 40~115mph
Run 4 is a 3-4 pull (~115mph)
I've included the difference (delta) in temp on the plot as well. You can draw your own conclusions as to where the trends are headed. The chart's kinda fugly but the numbers are there. In most cases, when you hit ~35C, the DME will start pulling timing & richen the mixture and ramp up from there as IAT increases. It's pretty much the same story after repeated pulls, you're looking at better than a 20C improvement (34F) once you get some load on these coolers (more as you do extended pulls).
and that, my friends, is HUGE. I would challenge any of the budget (<$1600) intercooler options out there with this cooler in thermal efficiency (any probably some higher dollar ones as well). Rest of the writeup with duct mod instructions to follow.
Last edited by earl3; 02-13-2011 at 03:41 PM.
02-13-2011, 03:18 PM
#4
Ok guys, one last thermal test before I move on. I found a better road in the middle of the desert with no traffic so I attempted to get the IC temps to some steady value. It was cooler out today (17C) and even a small temp change can make a big difference. The flattening at 10-11 is a shift into 5th. By 145ish, the .2 cooler temp was pretty much flat (.3C/s temp rise and falling) in these conditions with my setup.
This will probably be the last side by side comparison (I'll still check compressor outlet temps though) I do for these. I'll do more regular durametric logs though as my upgrades continue (hopefully on Big Willow!). Thanks for reading
Sorry for the delay but wanted to finalize this with the compressor outlet temps and the temps with both .2 coolers installed. Note that member Skandalis now has some additional .2 logs in the 997 section. In short, they thermally outperformed a ~$4k set of anonymous aftermarket coolers by about 30C. Yeah.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...game-over.html
Anyways, I did a quick 2-3 pull on a 15C day to check pre-intercooler temps on both sides. These come up quick and stay pretty constant so no real need for extended pulls here. At 1.2 bar gauge and an ambient pressure of 0.8 bar (density altitude ~6000ft), outlet temps were around 135C on the .1 side and 140C on the .2 side -pretty even in the scheme of things. These temps are in line with a pressure ratio of around 1.7 (guesstimate with gauge pressure + intake, IC, and post IC losses) and around 70% compressor efficiency, so I'm working the K16s pretty hard up in the thin air.
On another 15C day, I was very hard pressed to get the now combined .2 intercooler outlet temps above 40C doing pulls to ~130mph (i.e this backed up my single .2 cooler temp logs).
Based on this, at the end of my pulls @ ~145 mph on the 17C day, the .1 cooler was around 70% efficient and falling (~0.8C/s linear temp increase) with the .2 cooler around 85% and stabilizing (~0.3C/s increase). I would image they'd end up somewhere around 60/80% with a pull to ludicrous speeds but that's just speculation based on the trends. Both were slightly worse on the hotter 23C day. Yes, due to the feedback nature of a turbo/wastegate system, your compressor will have to work slightly harder to overcome the slightly higher flow restriction these dense cores present, but we're talking like a 0.05bar increase pre-intercooler here (based on Champion's flow test brought up earlier). Any additional heat from making up for the slightly higher pressure loss is obviously removed (and then some) by the .2 cores. That's not to say these won't bottleneck on a 700hp car of course but these look like a nice mod for you stock-600hp DIY guys.
Update since testing: These have been installed on several flashed 997 VTG 1.5bar+ cars doing 60-130 in the 6s. So far they have thermally outperformed several US aftermarket intercooler offerings.
This will probably be the last side by side comparison (I'll still check compressor outlet temps though) I do for these. I'll do more regular durametric logs though as my upgrades continue (hopefully on Big Willow!). Thanks for reading
Sorry for the delay but wanted to finalize this with the compressor outlet temps and the temps with both .2 coolers installed. Note that member Skandalis now has some additional .2 logs in the 997 section. In short, they thermally outperformed a ~$4k set of anonymous aftermarket coolers by about 30C. Yeah.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...game-over.html
Anyways, I did a quick 2-3 pull on a 15C day to check pre-intercooler temps on both sides. These come up quick and stay pretty constant so no real need for extended pulls here. At 1.2 bar gauge and an ambient pressure of 0.8 bar (density altitude ~6000ft), outlet temps were around 135C on the .1 side and 140C on the .2 side -pretty even in the scheme of things. These temps are in line with a pressure ratio of around 1.7 (guesstimate with gauge pressure + intake, IC, and post IC losses) and around 70% compressor efficiency, so I'm working the K16s pretty hard up in the thin air.
On another 15C day, I was very hard pressed to get the now combined .2 intercooler outlet temps above 40C doing pulls to ~130mph (i.e this backed up my single .2 cooler temp logs).
Based on this, at the end of my pulls @ ~145 mph on the 17C day, the .1 cooler was around 70% efficient and falling (~0.8C/s linear temp increase) with the .2 cooler around 85% and stabilizing (~0.3C/s increase). I would image they'd end up somewhere around 60/80% with a pull to ludicrous speeds but that's just speculation based on the trends. Both were slightly worse on the hotter 23C day. Yes, due to the feedback nature of a turbo/wastegate system, your compressor will have to work slightly harder to overcome the slightly higher flow restriction these dense cores present, but we're talking like a 0.05bar increase pre-intercooler here (based on Champion's flow test brought up earlier). Any additional heat from making up for the slightly higher pressure loss is obviously removed (and then some) by the .2 cores. That's not to say these won't bottleneck on a 700hp car of course but these look like a nice mod for you stock-600hp DIY guys.
Update since testing: These have been installed on several flashed 997 VTG 1.5bar+ cars doing 60-130 in the 6s. So far they have thermally outperformed several US aftermarket intercooler offerings.
02-13-2011, 03:20 PM
#5
Duct mod write up:
Standard disclaimer -I assume no responsibility if you screw up your car, what worked for me may not work for you. These duct mods are non-reversable.
The write up is for getting the factory passenger side 996tt ducts on a passenger side 997.2 intercooler. The driver's side is the same process, but it’s a mirror image type thing. Having the intercooler in front of you while you’re doing this will help you understand the steps! Read all the steps through first while looking at your intercooler & visualize what each one is doing. If you have questions or something doesn’t make sense, just ask. This is one way to do it, other’s may see a better way.
Stuff you'll need:
-Dremel tool with a cutoff wheel & 120 grit sanding wheel
-Drill with 1/8" bit
-Rivet gun (I used an Arrow RH-200 that’s like $15 at Lowe's)
-1/8" short rivets (I used Arrow RSS 1/8IP) –note, you could get by with zip ties here, but rivets seemed like a more robust option
-6"x18" 0.025" thickness Aluminum sheet metal (I used Steelworks Hillman #11232 from Lowe's)
-RTV sealant (gray or black preferred)
-Rubber Weather stripping (I used 2 packs of MD 01033 from Lowe's -you could use the RTV here in a pinch)
-Zip ties (I used GB 14" plastic cable ties from Lowe's)
I've assumed that as this point you've gotten the bumper removed, intercoolers off of the car and out of their frames (see Renntech.org spark plug DIY writeup for info here). Go ahead and release the metal duct straps & remove the ducts from your stock ICs. Give the ducts a GOOD cleaning.
Here we go:
Note: There is no Step 5, oops.
Standard disclaimer -I assume no responsibility if you screw up your car, what worked for me may not work for you. These duct mods are non-reversable.
The write up is for getting the factory passenger side 996tt ducts on a passenger side 997.2 intercooler. The driver's side is the same process, but it’s a mirror image type thing. Having the intercooler in front of you while you’re doing this will help you understand the steps! Read all the steps through first while looking at your intercooler & visualize what each one is doing. If you have questions or something doesn’t make sense, just ask. This is one way to do it, other’s may see a better way.
Stuff you'll need:
-Dremel tool with a cutoff wheel & 120 grit sanding wheel
-Drill with 1/8" bit
-Rivet gun (I used an Arrow RH-200 that’s like $15 at Lowe's)
-1/8" short rivets (I used Arrow RSS 1/8IP) –note, you could get by with zip ties here, but rivets seemed like a more robust option
-6"x18" 0.025" thickness Aluminum sheet metal (I used Steelworks Hillman #11232 from Lowe's)
-RTV sealant (gray or black preferred)
-Rubber Weather stripping (I used 2 packs of MD 01033 from Lowe's -you could use the RTV here in a pinch)
-Zip ties (I used GB 14" plastic cable ties from Lowe's)
I've assumed that as this point you've gotten the bumper removed, intercoolers off of the car and out of their frames (see Renntech.org spark plug DIY writeup for info here). Go ahead and release the metal duct straps & remove the ducts from your stock ICs. Give the ducts a GOOD cleaning.
Here we go:
Note: There is no Step 5, oops.
02-13-2011, 03:20 PM
#6
Upper duct done, now on to the lower:
Edit: Step 21.5, you'll need to trim a small piece on the area where you put the stock weather stripping back on (the rubber that goes against the bumper) so it will guide on to the upper portion. I've circled it in red -it'll make sense when you're trying to get the stripping back on.
Edit: Step 21.5, you'll need to trim a small piece on the area where you put the stock weather stripping back on (the rubber that goes against the bumper) so it will guide on to the upper portion. I've circled it in red -it'll make sense when you're trying to get the stripping back on.
02-13-2011, 08:19 PM
#7
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Earl;
Thanks for taking the time to repost this. For those that track there cars or have higher output mods. This is a very good mod. Porsche has really done a great job with this IC.
Thanks for taking the time to repost this. For those that track there cars or have higher output mods. This is a very good mod. Porsche has really done a great job with this IC.
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02-14-2011, 03:02 PM
#9
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I have brought in 3 sets.. They quickly get sold. It is my understanding the Germany has plenty.
A little forcasting from previous sales knowledge. When Porsche sees that there is a aftermarket demand for a product, the price ALWAYS increases. The GT3R oil pump was a bargain under $1000. The price quickly changed after they realized that this pump was used as a upgrade..
A little forcasting from previous sales knowledge. When Porsche sees that there is a aftermarket demand for a product, the price ALWAYS increases. The GT3R oil pump was a bargain under $1000. The price quickly changed after they realized that this pump was used as a upgrade..
02-14-2011, 06:40 PM
#11
Do the stock 996 hoses connect? I'm wondering if my SAMCO hoses will work...
Mike
Mike
02-14-2011, 08:13 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
I have brought in 3 sets.. They quickly get sold. It is my understanding the Germany has plenty.
A little forcasting from previous sales knowledge. When Porsche sees that there is a aftermarket demand for a product, the price ALWAYS increases. The GT3R oil pump was a bargain under $1000. The price quickly changed after they realized that this pump was used as a upgrade..
A little forcasting from previous sales knowledge. When Porsche sees that there is a aftermarket demand for a product, the price ALWAYS increases. The GT3R oil pump was a bargain under $1000. The price quickly changed after they realized that this pump was used as a upgrade..
