Tubi vs. Europipe
04-27-2003, 05:34 PM
#16
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FWIW and for those interested, there are sound clips/videos of various (four to be exact <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) 996TT exhaust/muffler systems at this site (scroll down to the appropriate video, right click and hit "save target as").... <a href="http://www.jackspictures.com/videos.htm" target="_blank">996TT Exhaust sound/video clips</a>
04-27-2003, 07:33 PM
#18
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by KPV:
<strong>Jack,
I was trying to recall that site earlier. I wanted to refer Msindi to it. I also used it in my determination of which system to buy. Thanks!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">My pleasure -- I happen to love the EP StageII-Loud also.
<strong>Jack,
I was trying to recall that site earlier. I wanted to refer Msindi to it. I also used it in my determination of which system to buy. Thanks!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">My pleasure -- I happen to love the EP StageII-Loud also.
04-29-2003, 07:43 PM
#20
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KPV wrote:
The stock exhaust has expansion bellows between the two resonator canisters.
The Europipe has expansion bellows between the two resonator canisters.
The Fabspeed and Tubi does not have expansion bellows.
As we probably all know, engines expand and contract with heat and cold, respectively. They do this in accordance with a predetermined engineering principle utilizing the coefficient of thermal expansion. For steel it is .00065, for aluminum it is .00128. For a 200 degree temperature differential, and assuming a 911 boxer engine is approximately 3 feet wide (from turbo to turbo), this translates to approximately 1/16 inch of expansion for for steel and 1/8 inch of expansion for aluminum. A 996 TT exhaust system must be capable of undergoing this cyclic stretching and relaxing since it is tied to the turbos at each side across the opposing banks of cylinders. The bellows in the factory system and the EP system take up this expansion/contraction. The Fabspeed and Tubi, unless I missed something, must take up this e/c in the tubes, resonator chambers, cats and welds as a unit.
==========================================
FYI>
The factory 996TT exhaust and therefore RUF's system as well as the Europipe is a completely welded system with the exception of the flexible "coupling" between each exhaust side or bank. This flexible coupling is there so you can fit the exhaust easier as its massive and furthermore its allows the exhaust gasses to exchange between cylinder banks. Its not a magical must have engineered part that protects expansion.
Fabspeed Motorsport uses true German made 100 cell cats and Formula 1 aircraft/MILitary specification V band flanges and marmon clamps to attach the catalytics to the muffler and these allow for the easiest and adjustable installation and the tips are adjustable. The system is modular and adjustable in sound levels whereas no other system offers these benefits.
Dont assume that because "it made in Europe" it is better than something made in the USA because its not factual.
We should have Steve Porsche PHD or EVO MS or someone do a dynotest on all of this stuff. CHAD once posted huge #s on his "early" exhaust systems and gravitated away.........why Chad?
Have a great day
The stock exhaust has expansion bellows between the two resonator canisters.
The Europipe has expansion bellows between the two resonator canisters.
The Fabspeed and Tubi does not have expansion bellows.
As we probably all know, engines expand and contract with heat and cold, respectively. They do this in accordance with a predetermined engineering principle utilizing the coefficient of thermal expansion. For steel it is .00065, for aluminum it is .00128. For a 200 degree temperature differential, and assuming a 911 boxer engine is approximately 3 feet wide (from turbo to turbo), this translates to approximately 1/16 inch of expansion for for steel and 1/8 inch of expansion for aluminum. A 996 TT exhaust system must be capable of undergoing this cyclic stretching and relaxing since it is tied to the turbos at each side across the opposing banks of cylinders. The bellows in the factory system and the EP system take up this expansion/contraction. The Fabspeed and Tubi, unless I missed something, must take up this e/c in the tubes, resonator chambers, cats and welds as a unit.
==========================================
FYI>
The factory 996TT exhaust and therefore RUF's system as well as the Europipe is a completely welded system with the exception of the flexible "coupling" between each exhaust side or bank. This flexible coupling is there so you can fit the exhaust easier as its massive and furthermore its allows the exhaust gasses to exchange between cylinder banks. Its not a magical must have engineered part that protects expansion.
Fabspeed Motorsport uses true German made 100 cell cats and Formula 1 aircraft/MILitary specification V band flanges and marmon clamps to attach the catalytics to the muffler and these allow for the easiest and adjustable installation and the tips are adjustable. The system is modular and adjustable in sound levels whereas no other system offers these benefits.
Dont assume that because "it made in Europe" it is better than something made in the USA because its not factual.
We should have Steve Porsche PHD or EVO MS or someone do a dynotest on all of this stuff. CHAD once posted huge #s on his "early" exhaust systems and gravitated away.........why Chad?
Have a great day
__________________
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Fabspeed Motorsport USA
155 Commerce Drive
Fort Washington, PA. 19034
www.Fabspeed.com
P: 215-646-4945
F: 215-646-9828
Exotic Car Performance Experts
Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Maserati, Bentley, Aston Martin, BMW, Audi and Jaguar.
31 year PCA Club member supporter
14 year Ferrari Club member
1st ever financial supporter of Porsche Fans/ Rennlist
04-29-2003, 07:49 PM
#21
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I actually did think that it is nice that the fabspeed is modular to replace cats easily!! Most other exhausts - as I understand - need to be entirely replaced if a problem occurs with the cats??
Any input on this??
Any input on this??
04-30-2003, 10:11 AM
#22
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CHAD- on what basis do you make these "expert" statements....no flames but elaborate.
------------------------------------------------
CJV wrote:
msindi,
All you have to do is cut out the old kat and install a new one. If you know how to weld it should take all of two hours.
2001 S Car Go 996tt
750+ HP - 693 lbs/ft Torque
Rennlist Member 020109-3278
================================================
Chad
There is absolutely no way that anyone can simply "CUT OUT & REWELD" a bad catalytic converter in about 2 hours. Any factory style 996TT exhaust is one big massive welded system........its takes LONGER THAN 2 hours to JUST SIMPLY remove and reinstall the system on any 996TT........ LET ALONE just "cut & weld in new catalytic converters" if one knows how to weld. The Porcshe shop manual allows 8hours to R&R the exhaust system.
---------------
Where are the Xperts out there.........Ryan Shankar's 996TT had a EUROPIPE with 4 quantity 200 cell cats (2 on each cylinder bank just like Porsche factory stock) with 993TT flanges instead of 996TT flanges and it was a BITCH to remove and reinstall versus my Fabspeed system........if a catalytic converter ever failed for whatever reason on a factory style fully welded system........one would have to replace that manufacturers entire system as it is "completely welded together like virtually all systems currently offered) or SEND it back to the manufacturer for replacement and modification.... a $1250 hit if "she" flies to Germany and then must fly back.
Modular is the way to go and has always been the way to go on all exhaust systems..........each & every factory Porcshe street and race exhaust system is modular and allows for replacement parts due to accidents or malfunctions or change of sound. Why the factory and others chose to make it "1 piece" is for cost reasons but a disadvantge.
Have a great day
------------------------------------------------
CJV wrote:
msindi,
All you have to do is cut out the old kat and install a new one. If you know how to weld it should take all of two hours.
2001 S Car Go 996tt
750+ HP - 693 lbs/ft Torque
Rennlist Member 020109-3278
================================================
Chad
There is absolutely no way that anyone can simply "CUT OUT & REWELD" a bad catalytic converter in about 2 hours. Any factory style 996TT exhaust is one big massive welded system........its takes LONGER THAN 2 hours to JUST SIMPLY remove and reinstall the system on any 996TT........ LET ALONE just "cut & weld in new catalytic converters" if one knows how to weld. The Porcshe shop manual allows 8hours to R&R the exhaust system.
---------------
Where are the Xperts out there.........Ryan Shankar's 996TT had a EUROPIPE with 4 quantity 200 cell cats (2 on each cylinder bank just like Porsche factory stock) with 993TT flanges instead of 996TT flanges and it was a BITCH to remove and reinstall versus my Fabspeed system........if a catalytic converter ever failed for whatever reason on a factory style fully welded system........one would have to replace that manufacturers entire system as it is "completely welded together like virtually all systems currently offered) or SEND it back to the manufacturer for replacement and modification.... a $1250 hit if "she" flies to Germany and then must fly back.
Modular is the way to go and has always been the way to go on all exhaust systems..........each & every factory Porcshe street and race exhaust system is modular and allows for replacement parts due to accidents or malfunctions or change of sound. Why the factory and others chose to make it "1 piece" is for cost reasons but a disadvantge.
Have a great day
04-30-2003, 12:43 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
In case anyone cares. Take a look here
<a href="http://www.europipe.be/1024/index_1024.htm" target="_blank">http://www.europipe.be/1024/index_1024.htm</a>
to see the 100 cell catalytic convertors that are used by Europipe.
You must click on "Stages" and then on the 100 cell catalytic convertor link.
<a href="http://www.europipe.be/1024/index_1024.htm" target="_blank">http://www.europipe.be/1024/index_1024.htm</a>
to see the 100 cell catalytic convertors that are used by Europipe.
You must click on "Stages" and then on the 100 cell catalytic convertor link.
05-02-2003, 06:26 PM
#26
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Chad.....I cant just let this one go and ignore your 100% self confidence on all "996TT matters".........you still honestly dont have any clue:
------------------------
CJV wrote:
I am not talking about removing and reinstalling the exhaust. I am not talking about the stock exhaust. I am talking about just removing and replacing kats in exhaust systems like Europipe. What is so hard about cutting the kats out (two cuts each) and re welding them back. That is a Tig fusion weld and if a good welder can't weld 12 diamenter inches with 16 gauge material in less an hour then something is very wrong. If you want to know time for a stock exhaust ask Cobra. He has some experience with these units.
--------------------------
Some facts and not idle speculation:
The EUROPIPE is essentially the same design as the factory Porsche 996TT system. Same fully welded system with 4 catalytic converters and expansion chambers and yada yada.
If anything goes wrong with a fully welded system you have to replace the entire system or have a PRO or most likely the orginal manufacturer fix it for you. Its not in any way shape or form a simple 2 hour exercise> WHY?HOW? EXPLAIN?
Someone hit the stopwatch>>>
1st) Its impossible to run down the NAPA, PEP BOYS or AUTOZONE and get 200cell or 100cell metallic racecats. You cant even get USA manufactuers to make them for you unless youre willing to commit to a 1000+ units. Youre done- game over!
But lets say STEF charters a GULFSTREAM G5 and airdrops the catalytics we need. Supre-we are as you assume now only 2 hours from VICTORY and being back on the dyno!
2nd) So we have our replacement cats......and you still have the EUROPIPE or some other big huge welded Porsche stock system, or mildly reworked factory system like a RUF on the car and we are ready to CUT & WELD.
-------------
So lets see what we can do in 2 HOURS.
1st) we pull the exhaust off the car in 2+hours and that ties up a lift at someones shop.
2nd)Do we just get a "hacksaw" and cut out the "bad catalytic converters" and then just weld them back in......RIGHT ON MR PRESIDENT!
100%WRONG ........1st you have to STOP and carefully build a fixture or JIG to properly locate all the mounting points.
2nd) call machine ship to order custom steel flanges and steel plate, stainless tubing and then retain an experienced fabricator to build you a custom JIG/FIXTURE so you can rest your EUROPIPE/RUF/ or whatever in this "expensive one-off affair" and then start cutting.
Whos on that stopwatch-- please reply>>
about 20hours are rolling.....the 996TT is not driveable and the service LIFT is tied up and the mechanic is angry.....and after you are done cutting.....you have to weld everything up and let it cool and reinstall it on the 996TT.
-------------------------
Meanwhile all you would have to do with a Fabspeed Motorsport 996TT system is in under 20 minutes...unbolt 2 FORMULA 1 style aircraft/Mil spec clamps and swap out the catalytic converters. Furthermore since the Fabspeed system is modular you could even just SWAP out the Fabspeed muffler itself if you want to go with a louder system or want a moderate sound or SWAP it out again for a full race 996TT muffler bypass pipes.
----------------------------
You simply cant do any of the above steps with any other 996TT exhaust brand. Its a fact pure and simpleand it outperform any other system interms of horsepower/Torque and customer preferred sound level.
Have a great day
Joe Fabiani
993RS 300+HP #33 C stock
Only 10 dyno pulls. No more needed
4000Miles/year driving
15-25 days on the racetrack
------------------------
CJV wrote:
I am not talking about removing and reinstalling the exhaust. I am not talking about the stock exhaust. I am talking about just removing and replacing kats in exhaust systems like Europipe. What is so hard about cutting the kats out (two cuts each) and re welding them back. That is a Tig fusion weld and if a good welder can't weld 12 diamenter inches with 16 gauge material in less an hour then something is very wrong. If you want to know time for a stock exhaust ask Cobra. He has some experience with these units.
--------------------------
Some facts and not idle speculation:
The EUROPIPE is essentially the same design as the factory Porsche 996TT system. Same fully welded system with 4 catalytic converters and expansion chambers and yada yada.
If anything goes wrong with a fully welded system you have to replace the entire system or have a PRO or most likely the orginal manufacturer fix it for you. Its not in any way shape or form a simple 2 hour exercise> WHY?HOW? EXPLAIN?
Someone hit the stopwatch>>>
1st) Its impossible to run down the NAPA, PEP BOYS or AUTOZONE and get 200cell or 100cell metallic racecats. You cant even get USA manufactuers to make them for you unless youre willing to commit to a 1000+ units. Youre done- game over!
But lets say STEF charters a GULFSTREAM G5 and airdrops the catalytics we need. Supre-we are as you assume now only 2 hours from VICTORY and being back on the dyno!
2nd) So we have our replacement cats......and you still have the EUROPIPE or some other big huge welded Porsche stock system, or mildly reworked factory system like a RUF on the car and we are ready to CUT & WELD.
-------------
So lets see what we can do in 2 HOURS.
1st) we pull the exhaust off the car in 2+hours and that ties up a lift at someones shop.
2nd)Do we just get a "hacksaw" and cut out the "bad catalytic converters" and then just weld them back in......RIGHT ON MR PRESIDENT!
100%WRONG ........1st you have to STOP and carefully build a fixture or JIG to properly locate all the mounting points.
2nd) call machine ship to order custom steel flanges and steel plate, stainless tubing and then retain an experienced fabricator to build you a custom JIG/FIXTURE so you can rest your EUROPIPE/RUF/ or whatever in this "expensive one-off affair" and then start cutting.
Whos on that stopwatch-- please reply>>
about 20hours are rolling.....the 996TT is not driveable and the service LIFT is tied up and the mechanic is angry.....and after you are done cutting.....you have to weld everything up and let it cool and reinstall it on the 996TT.
-------------------------
Meanwhile all you would have to do with a Fabspeed Motorsport 996TT system is in under 20 minutes...unbolt 2 FORMULA 1 style aircraft/Mil spec clamps and swap out the catalytic converters. Furthermore since the Fabspeed system is modular you could even just SWAP out the Fabspeed muffler itself if you want to go with a louder system or want a moderate sound or SWAP it out again for a full race 996TT muffler bypass pipes.
----------------------------
You simply cant do any of the above steps with any other 996TT exhaust brand. Its a fact pure and simpleand it outperform any other system interms of horsepower/Torque and customer preferred sound level.
Have a great day
Joe Fabiani
993RS 300+HP #33 C stock
Only 10 dyno pulls. No more needed
4000Miles/year driving
15-25 days on the racetrack
05-02-2003, 06:35 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
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Dude. I think someone needs a chill pill. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
05-03-2003, 08:16 AM
#28
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The guy that does our exhausts, Yes he is a pro. Plasma cutter to remove cats, remove cats (or replace if you want) weld, with a nice stitch weld, in under an hour. The cats are just held in place with a press fit, so installing a new cat would not be a big effort.
05-03-2003, 07:45 PM
#29
As we all know the exhausts are a very personal thing. Chad has done more trial and error than anyone else as well as being very helpful. When Chad say's Fabspeed is in the middle of what he has tested thats a very subjective opinion.
Currently I am running Fabspeed. Under WOT it sounds amazing. I love the gurgle and the popping sound it makes. For sure its on the louder side of the spectrum as far as exhausts go. On long trips the Fabspeed as Dan said can leave your ears ringing but its all a trade off. The Fabspeed makes power. My car was dynoed with just a fabspeed and made 16fwhp and and 25lbs of torque. I will try to post the results soon, as I am awaiting them from Matt at By Design. I am still yet to see any dyno results for the Europipe other than Chad's car which is not a fair comparision. I do know that when Dario from Texas dynoed his car with the europipe, it a made a 5hp increase. I am aware that exhaust had the 200 cell cats so if anyone has any more current information I would love to see it.
Currently I am running Fabspeed. Under WOT it sounds amazing. I love the gurgle and the popping sound it makes. For sure its on the louder side of the spectrum as far as exhausts go. On long trips the Fabspeed as Dan said can leave your ears ringing but its all a trade off. The Fabspeed makes power. My car was dynoed with just a fabspeed and made 16fwhp and and 25lbs of torque. I will try to post the results soon, as I am awaiting them from Matt at By Design. I am still yet to see any dyno results for the Europipe other than Chad's car which is not a fair comparision. I do know that when Dario from Texas dynoed his car with the europipe, it a made a 5hp increase. I am aware that exhaust had the 200 cell cats so if anyone has any more current information I would love to see it.
05-03-2003, 08:26 PM
#30
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With the insanely high mark up (profit) on all these Porsche exhausts, I figured one of the "best" manufacturers could afford to buy them all and have an independant company tests all the exhaust for a showdown to prove who's best if they're really that confident about their superior design to make power (not talking durability or ease of replacement).
Btw, with all the HP concerns everyone has, I still don't see why you guys use cats at all. Someone should figure out an O2 sim for this ECU and be done with it. It's not like not running cats is any less immoral than having a 600+HP car on the street that we obviously know speeds periodically.
Btw, with all the HP concerns everyone has, I still don't see why you guys use cats at all. Someone should figure out an O2 sim for this ECU and be done with it. It's not like not running cats is any less immoral than having a 600+HP car on the street that we obviously know speeds periodically.