Steve in FL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by cjv:

Why Porsche choose not to develop this potential I don't know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm guessing that'd be because there's no racing class for 4WD sports cars other than rallying.

Bill S.

Regarding Vipers beating Porsches: Can anyone recall one lengthy race (e.g. 24-hours) in the last three years where it was obvious that the lightly-modified Porsche 996-style entries were superior to the lightly-modified Vipers?

Tim'sNFS

I find these discussions interesting. It's a classic mine is bigger then yours. I'm of the opinion that most times I come up against a Viper, or any other fast car, it's not the car I'm afraid of but who's driving it. In other words the driving skill required to get all the performance out of these cars is rare. Especially in the 0-100-0 test. I know if you run across a Viper on the street in your X50 R&T won't decide which is faster.

1AS

I don't think it's a case of mine's bigger than yours as much as selectively choosing what seems to be the most important to each individual. I was at Gingerman when the Automobile test drivers showed up with the new Viper and ZO6. I had my Elise 190 there that night, but had lapped in my X50 as well. The X50 and Viper are within a fraction of a second of each other, and the difference is the driver and how hard he's willing to push. Interestingly, the Elise 190 is as fast as either on that track.
If you pick the circumstance, eg.accelerate from 30mph only, poor conditions, longer or shorter straights, tighter or wider turns, you can alter the results. The thing is that if you want to drive it every day, you can't pick your conditions, you just accept them. I couldn't drive the Viper in the conditions I drive my X50 ( and I've got lots of track and poor weather experience). If you own a Viper in the midwest, you've got to check the weather before you leave home, if you want to get it home. That's not true for the X50. It's fast when you want fast, and drivable when the Viper must stay parked. Since I like to use my cars daily, that's the variable important to me. AS

sharkster

Heh.. that's what your car is for

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Steve in FL:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by cjv:

Why Porsche choose not to develop this potential I don't know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm guessing that'd be because there's no racing class for 4WD sports cars other than rallying.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">

Bentley

Porsche had the foresight to relize many drivers want all wheel drive and P.S.M because without it a driver on highways is in a vehicle that bodes a future accident waiting to happen. The GT2 is a fine car but would anyone want to 'get on it' if it was drizzling or raining? There is too much weight bias in the rear end for the amount of real wheel horsepower; the car is unforgiving [unlike an X50].
It is fun to play but to do so one must live to see another day.

RWO

CJV,

As I said Chad, it's personal preference. My post was simply to correct Bentley's comments implying that Vipers where for “smoking tires” and were for children impressing themselves. They may be 2wd but they are very fast cars. We are in agreement on the "potential" of TTs but the discussion was stock to stock.

Bentley,

Your post was that the Viper would not hold it's own on a mountian road. Now you want to go from which (stock) is faster to "weight profile" and which is safer with a "typical sports car driver". We can agree on the later but again your weight argument is not valid. The GTS weighs 1588kg wet. A TT wet is between 1540kgs (Porsche's posted min weight, I think that is dry) and 1615kgs (EU weight, don't know if that's wet or not). Those are 6 speed numbers. I don’t see any “weight profile” advantage.

The funny thing here Bentley is that we both voted with our dollars and we own the Porsche (I assume you own one?). I just take issue with comments about other cars that are not based in fact.

Roy

Bentley

In an earlier posting I defined 'weight profile' which means a lot more than just front-rear weight bias. You may want to review the discussion. One may not choose to purchase an all wheel drive vehicle so he can [run on the edge], but sooner or later the piper will have to be paid for such high speed driving with old technology.

treynor

Bently - pheeeew!! I haven't seen such spew since I last visited the Honda Civic board and their continual "but we have VTEC yo!" drivel. I realize you're only speaking for yourself and not the rest of the board members, as evidenced by their comments distancing themselves from you, but really, give it a rest!

As a reality check here, Subaru was making 4WD rally cars back when Porsche was still building oversteer-happy 911TTs with on/off boost curves. Porsche's fastest cars -- the GT2 and the Carrera GT -- are both RWD. Are you saying they're "Old Technology" ?? And so on. The fact that YOU clearly don't feel comfortable handling a high-performance RWD sports car does not entitle you to generalize to the rest of us.

As an aside, it should surprise no one that on a racetrack an equally-powered RWD car will generally outperform its AWD counterpart. In practical terms, AWD adds weight and additional driveline losses in exchange for the ability to put more power to the ground in low-speed corner exits. On most any roadcourse, that advantage is outweighed (pun intended) by the drawbacks I mentioned earlier.

Bill S.

treynor,

Well put. My position has always been that there are many cars that are surpassing a stock Porsche's usable performance. Up until a few years ago, if you were in a stock Porsche turbo, you were king of the road. Nobody, even in most modified cars, could touch you. Now, stock BMWs, Corvettes, Vipers, and even Mercedes can easily stay with a stock Porsche turbo on most streets and, in the case of the Viper and Corvette, most tracks also.

I remember when you could take a kid for a ride in a stock turbo and they would remember it for the rest of their lives (I know, I was one of those kids!). Now, they say "Seems about the same as my dad's Mercedes". Unfortunately, I have to agree with them for all but the most challenging roads.

Porsche cars do have great potential for performance and cross-country reliability (e.g., Ruf). I only wish Porsche would do the engineering to exploit this potential in a fun car.

Bentley

The focus of my comments have been directed to driving, not on the track, but on the streets and highways which Porsche drivers use everyday. It would be quite silly to concentrate one's energies on vehicular use of one or two days a week when the typical Turbo owner utilizes his investment the bulk of the week. Since the road conditions, unlike a racetrack, may not be well maintained [pot holes, oil spills, bulk spills from trucks, erratic drivers, and the like] and since the weather everywhere is varied season to season, the all wheel drive vehicle makes both performance as well as safety sense for most Turbo owners. The Porsche Turbo allows its owner to drive safely while enjoying all aspects of its engineering in a non-track environment.

RWO

Do you own one?

Bentley

I have an X50. The other car which is of interest is the BGT which comes out in November and has a top speed of 197. My interests are in E and E vehicles. This is why vehicles which do not measure up to those high standards for street and highway use, UNDER ALL WEATHER CONDITIONS, are both dangerous to drive in such situations both for the passengers as well as other persons on the roadway. I would imagine that next to none of the forum participants know what it is to drive under such conditions.

adrial

Bentley, are you suggesting driving aggressively on the street? What's it matter which car is better on the street...How many of us live in or near Germany where we are free to push it to the limit on the autobahn?? There's a reason US spec cars have higher ride heights and an overall poorer suspension from a performance standpoint.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RWO:
<strong>
You need to get educated on Vipers. David Murry ran a 1.39 in a TT, a 1.38 in a GT2 (Panorama) at Road Atlanta. A stock Viper GTS runs a 1.36 (Viper Race series, stock car with race pads only).

Roy</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">What tires were these cars running?? What was the air temperature? track temperature? All these factors put together can make a huge difference...

RWO

Hey Adrial,

The P cars were stock, stock tires. The Panorama article was in a Jan issue so I assume the test was in late fall.

The GTS times were also on stock tires. In my experiance they run 1.36-1.40s, summer and winter... You can see lap times on the Viper Racing Club site, they have a stock class that only allows for brake pad changes. I tracked mine a lot and considered it to be a very good track car with a few mods to the brake cooling.

Roy