sharkster

Heya guys, just got word the production EVO Club Sport intercoolers should be ready by the end of this week (early next- ready to ship) and I've got a few sets on order already obviously. I still have a couple more spots (they're in high-demand) so if any of you guys wants a set lemme know

Just a couple of notes- you do NEED the EVO hoses to use these and if you have the original style hoses with the billet ends you're still just fine. You'll be using new clamps is all

http://www.sharkwerks.com/products.php?pid=64

JP Schnitzer

Hey ya Sharky,

So what would these intercoolers do for my EVO Stage 3 X50...and how many MAF's would I blow through in the first month?

sharkster

LOL Well they'd do a better job ob sustaining your power. I don't have dynos with just K24s in that sense either. I don't want to habor "guesses" tho

maxwell

I was just wondering if Porsche parts could get any more expensive, but yes, they can! Im sure they're great, but 3 grand? wow.

sharkster

I've seen other ones before for 5K a pair but it certainly is the way of low-production units. The cores themselves are darned pricey... Not "secan" cores which are like 18k a pop but still

Jean

Alex,

Can you tell us more about the technical aspects of these intercoolers, their measured efficiency, how it was measured (what metodology), with what tools and what were the results. I am sure that some of the customers would be interested in the technical aspects before spending money they could put on some other engine or safety upgrades.

Thanks

TB993tt

V flow intercoolers, CAD end tanks, CNC flow etc etc etc..........

The builders of the fastest Nurburgring 996tt both race and production produce a set of intercoolers with cores manufactured by Porsche Motorsports OEM supplier Secan and they sell for about $15000 US for a set.

How can it possibly be feasible despite CNC this "V" flow that, that for a measily $2795 US a set of better than GT2 factory intercoolers can be made ?

This is Bling of the highest order and is an insult to those of us who have stumped up the required amount $$ to purchase components which work.

I look forward to having to retract the above statement when some scientific data is presented - I am not holding my breath

BTW
I am the fool who purchased the original "V" flow TTP/FVD 993tt intercooler for a measily $3000 US and after having it tested now run a stock intercooler - please learn from my mistake !

sharkster

Gonna give you guys a more definitive answer than right now from my blackberry but suffice it to say that as much as I love the 993TT, sorry you're coming from a different car to compare what you bought for your 993TT. If you look at the the 996TT twin intercoolers the plastic kneck is so very restrictive and seems like an afterthought to actually making it fit inside their brakcets and bumper. Widening those and increasing the ID has a very nice impact on the flow.

TB993TT, I know/understand you're a naysayer and nothing in the world will change that- and that's fine. If you had a 996TT, I'd say here is a set of these, put them on your modified 996TT (550and above) car and compare them. Use any dyno you like (I know you don't trust any American dynos) and see what you find. Bench and flow test them like todd did, measure the temps... Knock yourself out. I'm sorry you find it "insulting" but the bottomline is they do make more power and yes have better flow because the stock ones ARE restrictive. Look at ALL the European tuners. See if any of their kits beyond 550-600hp retains them. You'll find that they too change them and particularily at the point of the kneck. Take a look at the pictures of stock ones and you'll see what I mean.

Also if the stock cores were so magnificent and essentialy gold dust with only 15,000 secan ones being any better, then don't you think these "cheap" stock ones would be used by just about every single serious Japanese tuner for Skylines, Supras etc...? I mean they're so much cheaper than Spearco and the rest of that "****".

Agian, I'm sorry that you got "burned" by spending 3K on your 993 TT intercooler downgrade but again we're talking different cars here. The 993TT has a SINGLE one that sits on top of the engine and it gets very easily heat soaked. So in your world/application the core efficiency is even more important. Whatever you replace it with is going to be heat soak prone... and WAY more so than the 996TT ones which in my book and Porsche's book are indeed placed way better on the sides of the car away from the engine and all that heat soak.

TB993tt

I really wish I was bothered enough to take you up on your offer and get a set tested on a proper engine dyno with the type of air flow which Porsche use when rating the hp of these motors - I did this with some ZC K16 turbos a couple of years ago with humbling results.
Yup - if you want that sort of hp then cheap I/Cs are great - when any of the Japanese stuff runs the ring, 540hp is about the limit - why ? you got it -intercooling.
Well FYI the cores used on the 996tt Secan and the latest 993tt Secan are the same. The 993tt has two intercoolers (i'm sure you knew that )
There are many reasons why the intercoolers were placed on the sides in the 996tt and I'm not sure you are qualified to make a totally informed judgement as to whether this is ultimately a better arrangement than on top of the engine. You will notice certain others Euro tuners revert back to top mounted with varying degrees of success, but the fastest Porsche turbos use Secan.

sharkster

I know which cores they are and I also know that the 993TT uses two cores and it sits as "one" big unit on top of the engine. I'm sure you are qualified to understand why Porsche went and made the change on the 996TT and 997TT so I'll leave it at that. Suffice it to say try feeling a 993TT one vs a 996TT and I'm sorry but your out of date placement gets heat soaked way faster. In order to make a better IC for your car I agree you do need a crazy expensive core that is more efficient than a secan. Hot air rises from the engine and gets trapped nicely below your lovely secan. Your engine sits underneath your twin intercoolers stuck together as one unit. Plain and simple. 996TT ones do not. My 930 has a pretty decent Kokeln IC but touch your IC or my 930 one and only after regular running it gets darned hot to touch. Then do the same with a 996TT and you'll find they are not hot to touch. Not scientific I know but still... And before you say it, yes of course I know the 996TT sucks, all US tuners suck and the 993TT is the best car ever invented period but the fact remains your test with ZC Turbos and these Intercoolers are not the same thing. Whatever dyno these have been put on they make more power and improve flow, plain and simple. I don't know what the point of releasing intercoolers that don't do that would be? If that were the case then EVO would have made some like 3-4 years ago? It took a lot of R&D and real world testing (you can't live on your engine dyno all your life you know), 1/4mil runs and so forth to come to that decision. Personally a much easier solution would have been to take the GT2 cores and weld some better end tanks on but that wasn't enough for Todd so he did this instead. Ask Jean if his Protomotive intercooler is "****" and your stock one is better. I would seriously doubt it.

As far as your lack of respect for Japanese Turbo cars goes I'm sorry but there are plenty of high HP ones in the US, Mid-East etc.. with $4-5000 intercoolers that would not only whoop on my car, fast bikes but yes even on your 550HP RS Tuning monster too Just because they do not hold Ring records (do you think they actually all care that much? Not everyone sees that as the ONE benchmark available in the world- other than a chasis dyno) I don't think you can flat out say that none of them can make over 550hp.

And I'm from the UK so don't say I'm being a Yank either

sharkster

And now that I'm back here. TB993TT, you may not like EVO for some reason but here are some flow figures that really illustrate my point solely with regard to the 996TT stock intercoolers versus the EVO ones:

996TT Intercooler Cores Assembled
Measured on an independent Superflow 1020 flow bench

In./H2O CFM Flow OEM CFM Flow EVO
5.0 90 134
7.5 117 167
10 139 193
12.5 158 218
15 175 239
20 203 279
30 251 343
35 272 372
40 291 400
50 331 451
60 364 493

And TB, not trying to make this a discussion over which intercooler application is superior- 993TT or 996TT even though most people would agree it's the later. Not even trying to argue which car is better/worse, whether the 996TT' water cooled 4 valve heads vs the 993TT two valve non water cooled heads etc... It could also be argued that the 996TT has proven to be a slightly better platform for big HP (shock horror). Oh and before you pencil me as a 993TT hater, I'm not... Going to have one real soon (by next week). Going to keep it docile at around 550HP.

sharkster

Heya Jean,

Todd's going to speak on his own behalf on this stuff but in the meantime:
In the meantime, here are some flow figures:

996TT Intercooler Cores Assembled
Measured on an independent Superflow 1020 flow bench

In./H2O CFM Flow OEM CFM Flow EVO
5.0 90 134
7.5 117 167
10 139 193
12.5 158 218
15 175 239
20 203 279
30 251 343
35 272 372
40 291 400
50 331 451
60 364 493

As I was saying the improvements on the 996TT end tanks over stock really does change things for those of us with higher HP cars...

TB993tt

You are right, this is not scientific at all. The top mounted intercoolers may heat soak when you are stationary, but once the air flow goes through them they cool very quickly, they are remarkably efficient and the effect of the hot engine below is negligable. If you have spent time watching intake temperature numbers you would understand what I am saying. The reason the 996tt went with the side placement is not for this percieved issue IMO (and like I said you or I are not qualified to make the call on why Porsche put the I/Cs there) my guess it is more for packaging so they could do away with the whale tail
Er......what are you talking about
The amount of magic tuning parts which have been tested on the engine dyno using proper road simulating air flow, which fail miserably leads me to be very sceptical.
Well TTP sold many many sets of their "V" flow "Motorsport" intercooler - funnily enough the main benefit of that unit was supposed to be the "flow" compared to stock.
I'll go with the engine dyno which delivers the highest performing Porsche engines thanks
Well you really don't know much about intercoolers do you ?
And this has what to do with your intercooler ?
At the ring they usually get down to around 550hp - that is the thermal limit

I understand there are 1000hp 1/4milers or whatever but for me tuned Porsche power should be the same as factory power which means it doesn't disappear when hot - this has always been the forte of Porsches IMO
I don't like the connotaion of this statement this is about debating a tuners product, doesn't matter where its from.

I'm afraid these numbers mean zilch - what we need to see ideally is a set of intake temperature numbers from the same car on the same day runing up to maximum revs through the gears to ideally around 150mph swap intercoolers and do it again and plot the numbers/revs to see which I/C is giving the cooler intake. The problem is the intake temp changes very quickly and really some sort of data logger is needed - however you could still do the experiment and observe the maximum intake temp you see at say 7000rpm - you would get the gist of whether your new I/Cs were better.
The 996tt motor is a better motor in many ways - some of us just like the air cooled thing
Oh and BTW 550 Porsche hp is far from docile

Jean

Sharky

Thanks for the numbers posted, these seem to be good flow numbers, I will leave the analysis to someone more knowledgeable than myself.

The US tuner bashing coment is utterly ridiculous, run a search and see how many european counterparts are under the spotlight as well. (Darn, you are European too )

The intercooler is supposed to be measured for efficiency, flow and pressure drops more importantly. My intercooler is serving its purpose well so far, but I run my car at 0.9-1 Bar maximum, far from the ridiculous boost that some of these engines are running, I also have all the engine dyno efficiency datalogs for every 100RPMs and different boost ranges. Anything more than 1 Bar and you will start seeing important performance drops after less than a minute of usage. Money thrown out of the window is what I would call it.

If the objective are quartermile runs, they should be called as such, "quartermile intercoolers" (certainly a good selling tool lately it seems), they might give you a decimal or two over such a short distance.

For me claiming that my IC is anywhere close to a Secan core would be lying, so I won't. This is basic common sense, you cannot get for $3K the same result than a $15k IC that has cost millions of R&D dollars to build by a top aerospace firm.

Send me the ICs ( I am in the US now) and I will be happy to do the independent testing back to back with intake temp measurements and AX22 runs, it will all be seriously documented. I will pay for any damage obviously.

Let us do the tests, and I would be the first one to buy more than a dozen sets if I see any performance gains that are anywhere close to 35HP.

Call me a sceptic.

m42racer

If I may add a point or two here.

Any IC that lowers the intake charge Temp is a good thing, even if the flow numbers are lowered, as long as the Turbo can produce the air flow to make the power without going off the map. Engines will make more torque if the air nis cooler, even if there is less of it. Basis stuff.

But as I see it, all of the cores that can be bought are all typically even in flow and temp efficiency. Some may have a different tank arrangement, but in the end the results at the crank are similar. I'm sure some will disagree. If you have tested these back to back you may see the results are similar. BTW, the flow numbers given above look stock for the aftermarket version. I have seen flow tests done on coolers and the results are very inacurate when done on a flow bench. 60 " of water pressure @ 40^F is approx 2 PSI. The above numbers look close to what a stock cooler will flow. Flowing Intercooler cores without any resistance (engine) provides inaccurate flow numbers as the drop in the flow numbers thro the core is expediential with pressure. These numbers may have the appearance of looking good on paper but do not really mean anything until tested on an engine, in the car where boost/air volume is typical and air flow over the core is real. Pressure drop/ flow drop is not a bad thing if the temp is lowered. Less air(volume) but more dense air will produce more torque.

Also, there is a point where more air thro the Intercooler will achieve very little effect on the Torque if the head cannot flow more air. The limitation is the Head flow and Camshaft. Look at these 2 areas and you may see a difference. If the restriction is not lowered and the airflow thro the Head not increased by flow ability and Camshaft control, the pressure drop or restriction is just moved down the road. Lower this restriction and the air flow goes up, the Turbo does less work(pressure) to achieve the same or less airflow, less heat is generated making the work of the IC less and the Torque will increase. Just adding a so called better cooler without looking at these other areas is nothing less that a sales pitch to sell more parts in my opinion. It certainly is not an engineering/development goal.