Second GT2 crash at Nürburgring
03-30-2003 | 08:43 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Jupiter
Second GT2 crash at Nürburgring
I have heard, second hand, that yet another GT2 crashed at Nürburgring last weekend. This is the second such crash this month. March is the first month of the season and has very limited opening times.
The first GT2 crash was discussed at Rennlist here:
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001511;p=1" target="_blank">Topic: Yet another GT2 track crash</a>
Stephen
The first GT2 crash was discussed at Rennlist here:
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001511;p=1" target="_blank">Topic: Yet another GT2 track crash</a>
Stephen
03-30-2003 | 10:51 PM
#2
Racer
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 253
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Hmmm...
2 Crashes per month at the ring...
320 GT2's made...
Assume crashes began Jan 1, 2002...
Means that last GT2 should shuffle off this mortle coil by about 2016!
Though it will probably be a lot sooner by the sounds of it.
2 Crashes per month at the ring...
320 GT2's made...
Assume crashes began Jan 1, 2002...
Means that last GT2 should shuffle off this mortle coil by about 2016!
Though it will probably be a lot sooner by the sounds of it.
03-31-2003 | 12:46 AM
#4
Banned
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 193
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From: CA
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by FixedWing:
<strong>I have heard, second hand, that yet another GT2 crashed at Nürburgring last weekend. This is the second such crash this month. March is the first month of the season and has very limited opening times.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I have a feeling this driver is nothing more than a schmuck with a healthy amount of disposable income that overestimated his potential behind the wheel.
Bottom line: This guy thought he was hot **** and found out the hard way that he doesn't know how to handle the car.
<strong>I have heard, second hand, that yet another GT2 crashed at Nürburgring last weekend. This is the second such crash this month. March is the first month of the season and has very limited opening times.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I have a feeling this driver is nothing more than a schmuck with a healthy amount of disposable income that overestimated his potential behind the wheel.
Bottom line: This guy thought he was hot **** and found out the hard way that he doesn't know how to handle the car.
03-31-2003 | 09:36 AM
#5
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,093
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From: Jupiter
Isn't every Porsche owner "a schmuck with a healthy amount of disposable income"?
Anyway, I'm impressed with how much you are able to divine from the little I said, Pete. What religion do you practice? I shall have to try it myself.
Personally, I don't know **** about this accident. When I do, I'll let everyone know.
Stephen
Anyway, I'm impressed with how much you are able to divine from the little I said, Pete. What religion do you practice? I shall have to try it myself.
Personally, I don't know **** about this accident. When I do, I'll let everyone know.
Stephen
03-31-2003 | 11:45 AM
#7
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,093
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From: Jupiter
Ok, facts you want, facts you are going to get.
Here is video shot shortly after the crash of the first Red GT2 on 9 March:
<a href="http://www.emm3.de/videos/videos/gt2_crash.mpg" target="_blank">Red GT2 post crash video</a>
It is about 11MB. I'm posting it on this thread because the previous thread seems to have got thoroughly high-jacked. I just became aware of this a few minutes ago thanx to my friends at Ringers.
Obviously I have an opinion but I'll save it for the moment. But for those that don't know the Ring, this is a very fast spot. On many cars, that hump tends to split the braking for the fast bend that follows. The car will get very light there. In effect, the track has been designed to upset the car.
Stephen
Here is video shot shortly after the crash of the first Red GT2 on 9 March:
<a href="http://www.emm3.de/videos/videos/gt2_crash.mpg" target="_blank">Red GT2 post crash video</a>
It is about 11MB. I'm posting it on this thread because the previous thread seems to have got thoroughly high-jacked. I just became aware of this a few minutes ago thanx to my friends at Ringers.
Obviously I have an opinion but I'll save it for the moment. But for those that don't know the Ring, this is a very fast spot. On many cars, that hump tends to split the braking for the fast bend that follows. The car will get very light there. In effect, the track has been designed to upset the car.
Stephen
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03-31-2003 | 12:18 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,093
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From: Jupiter
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Steve Lavigne:
<strong>Read over Zamirz's first post in the other thread. Pete was obviously making this statement 'tongue in cheek.'</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Woops! Now I recall that conversation .. sorry, was trying to forget.
And sorry Pete for thinking so lowly of you.
Stephen
<strong>Read over Zamirz's first post in the other thread. Pete was obviously making this statement 'tongue in cheek.'</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Woops! Now I recall that conversation .. sorry, was trying to forget.
And sorry Pete for thinking so lowly of you.
Stephen
03-31-2003 | 01:52 PM
#11
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Joined: Jul 2002
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Ok -- I looked at the video. Here are my thoughts:
Basically, that corner looks like it is designed specifically to ruin a GT2.
The GT2 is very fast and very light once you get over 100. It also enters a world where you BETTER know how to drive a RWD TT or else.
I can imagine this driver zooming along, blasting through the gears carrying about 20MPH more than he thinks. I know in the section before the crash you could really get a GT2 going... The slight right before it is PERFECT for a GT2... and you could blast through it and really be on the throttle... Thus you are ROCKETING up that hill with your boost on!
Ok, now he goes up the blind hill, and knows there is a fairly sharp turn ahead, so in his mind prepares for his braking and downshift. Hopefully he's anticpating... Did he brake a bit already? I don't think he did.
Now he crests the hills...
Perhaps, the suspension is so tight on the GT2 that he catches about 1" of air, (if he does, the left/right camber of the track would toss his car towards the right) or perhaps not... But the moment he can see over the hill he realizes he is too hot and does not have a lot of time to deal with it...
Thinking he's going straight, he chances a rapid decelleration... If he's mid-shift at the peak of the hill (A common instinct in a lot of drivers on any road) then he's already got weight coming around he isn't aware of because the odds are he's cheating from left to right as he comes over the top in anticipation...
But at that moment the car reaches "peak lightness" (don't know the term -- maybe moment where inertia overcomes downforce) because it hits that very minor ridge just past the top of the hill. (look for it on the video)...
I think at this point he's already lost the car, and feeling that he tries the brakes (note -- tire marks indicates front wheels were not in opposite lock -- so either he didn't realize what was happening or didn't try to save it --). And once he taps the brakes he goes *** first into the right side rail.
At the speed he was going -- less than 1/3 a second for all this to happen.
And, FWIW, something that could easily have happened to any one who didn't really fear that spot. It is the perfect GT2 killer -- Boost will be high going up the hill -- Which means throttle drop will produce most drastic weight shift -- Then you hit the bump as you anticpate the turn --
Remind me to use a car with PSM if i ever try going all out at the Ring.
Dean
PS -- That could all be wrong -- just my best guess based on 4500 miles in the GT2.
Basically, that corner looks like it is designed specifically to ruin a GT2.
The GT2 is very fast and very light once you get over 100. It also enters a world where you BETTER know how to drive a RWD TT or else.
I can imagine this driver zooming along, blasting through the gears carrying about 20MPH more than he thinks. I know in the section before the crash you could really get a GT2 going... The slight right before it is PERFECT for a GT2... and you could blast through it and really be on the throttle... Thus you are ROCKETING up that hill with your boost on!
Ok, now he goes up the blind hill, and knows there is a fairly sharp turn ahead, so in his mind prepares for his braking and downshift. Hopefully he's anticpating... Did he brake a bit already? I don't think he did.
Now he crests the hills...
Perhaps, the suspension is so tight on the GT2 that he catches about 1" of air, (if he does, the left/right camber of the track would toss his car towards the right) or perhaps not... But the moment he can see over the hill he realizes he is too hot and does not have a lot of time to deal with it...
Thinking he's going straight, he chances a rapid decelleration... If he's mid-shift at the peak of the hill (A common instinct in a lot of drivers on any road) then he's already got weight coming around he isn't aware of because the odds are he's cheating from left to right as he comes over the top in anticipation...
But at that moment the car reaches "peak lightness" (don't know the term -- maybe moment where inertia overcomes downforce) because it hits that very minor ridge just past the top of the hill. (look for it on the video)...
I think at this point he's already lost the car, and feeling that he tries the brakes (note -- tire marks indicates front wheels were not in opposite lock -- so either he didn't realize what was happening or didn't try to save it --). And once he taps the brakes he goes *** first into the right side rail.
At the speed he was going -- less than 1/3 a second for all this to happen.
And, FWIW, something that could easily have happened to any one who didn't really fear that spot. It is the perfect GT2 killer -- Boost will be high going up the hill -- Which means throttle drop will produce most drastic weight shift -- Then you hit the bump as you anticpate the turn --
Remind me to use a car with PSM if i ever try going all out at the Ring.
Dean
PS -- That could all be wrong -- just my best guess based on 4500 miles in the GT2.
03-31-2003 | 08:52 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,249
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From: Support our troops! go USA!!!
I wonder if temperature has anything to do with this? I can feel my car lose adhesion upon full acceleration in a straight line even in the dry when the temperature outside is cool. As for lack of driver skill, I learned that at PDE. even the regular 911 has more ability thatn 99.9% of those drivng it out there, lets all have fun but be careful out there! I wish I had the skill of Stuck or Rohl or Schummi, I think most of us know we don't. But I can say I am glad I have a car with 10x the abiity that I do. It's like flying an F-15 against an Iraqi MIG. I feel the need for speed!
03-31-2003 | 09:33 PM
#13
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Jupiter
Ok, a little more info on the first Red GT2 crash. This was posted today on the Ringers list:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Hi Stephen, hi all,
> I too want to know more about this accident and the
> condition of the driver.
I emailed with Stephen about this accident a while ago, and he proposed, that I should tell the list what I know about it. I didn't, because it was only second hand information, but since it seems to be correct, here is what I know:
The driver did not have serious injuries. By this I mean, not life threatening. He had some broken rips, and all the other things you have after such a hard accident, but nothing too serious. I think he was veeeeery lucky then...
...because I saw the place of the accident on my last lap of the day, saw the armco, and it looked like hell... This must have been a very very hard impact. It was on Quiddelbacher Höhe by the way, just after the jump and before the double right hander to Flugplatz. Don't know how it happened, but my guess would be, that he landed slightly sideways or maybe started braking in the air?
That's what I know about it from someone who knows him personally. I myself do not know the driver personaly, I only saw him more than once at the Nordschleife and events of Pistenclub.
Heiko
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Stephen
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">
Hi Stephen, hi all,
> I too want to know more about this accident and the
> condition of the driver.
I emailed with Stephen about this accident a while ago, and he proposed, that I should tell the list what I know about it. I didn't, because it was only second hand information, but since it seems to be correct, here is what I know:
The driver did not have serious injuries. By this I mean, not life threatening. He had some broken rips, and all the other things you have after such a hard accident, but nothing too serious. I think he was veeeeery lucky then...
...because I saw the place of the accident on my last lap of the day, saw the armco, and it looked like hell... This must have been a very very hard impact. It was on Quiddelbacher Höhe by the way, just after the jump and before the double right hander to Flugplatz. Don't know how it happened, but my guess would be, that he landed slightly sideways or maybe started braking in the air?
That's what I know about it from someone who knows him personally. I myself do not know the driver personaly, I only saw him more than once at the Nordschleife and events of Pistenclub.
Heiko
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Stephen
03-31-2003 | 09:43 PM
#14
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 115
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From: Atlanta
I think unless you reeeeealy know what you are doing, a turbo is best played with at 7 or 8 tenths. I own go that fast on a road I know like the back of my hand. I think the ring is very tough to memorise.
I think most of are better off going very fast in a straight line.
Don't ask how I figured this out.
I think most of are better off going very fast in a straight line.
Don't ask how I figured this out.
