Craig.

Thanks Chad for the outstanding post. Like many (perhaps most) Rennlist members, I engage in this hobby, and patronize this forum, as an outlet and escape from the tremendous adversity I face in my daily business/profession. I seek information and camaraderie, rather than hostility and confrontation. I do not post on Rennlist in order to do battle with others, nor to prove myself right or someone else wrong. When one enthusiast continues to denigrate another, long after the underlying issue ceased being relevant, as TB993tt has done, it undermines and destroys the fellowship and civility that once thrived here on Rennlist.

As you correctly stated, my uninformed HP guess (which was requested by someone else, rather than posted by me sue sponte) was predicated on several caveats arising from my lack of expertise and, when others much wiser than I, explained why my guess was likely inaccurate (not surprising given that it was an uninformed guess), I immediately withdrew my guess. Yet, TB993tt continues to denigrate me regarding my error. His crusade lost any value many months ago and is now counterproductive and detrimental to Rennlist (not to mention vindictive and likely motivated by an undisclosed agenda). Given that I long ago acknowledged my error and accepted TB993tt’s POV, TB993tt’s ongoing campaign against me is, IMHO, rather pathetic. Fortunately, the vast majority of Rennlist members are far more amicable. You, Chad, are a shining example of the fellowship that we should all strive to foster. Thank you.

Craig

wross996tt

In statistics we call this "pre-mature generalization"...it really is not necessary. I believe we can all be skeptical on our own without denegrating others. Just MHO.

TB993tt

cjv
Why do you think you are "not one of my favourite people" ? On the contrary I love what you are doing, you are about the maddest (in a good way ) I've ever encountered at tuning Porsches - I've always followed your posts and its mainly for your stuff that I visit 6 Speed.
The sustainable hp is the stuff which will still be produced at top speed WOT on the autobahn after 5 miles driving this is what Porsche hp is about IMHO (I don't understand your comments about Porsche hp ratings). Germans don't drive 1000hp Jap cars - there is a reason
Craig
Apologies again for being rude, I was trying to point out the differences between the sites and I think it was a good example, you are right 'though and it won't be mentioned again (by me) on here.

tkerrmd

IMHO all you guys know more than most about these cars. All have different interests and enjoy various aspects of the same type of car. Each likes to share what they have done, think or feel or give an opinion. I think after reading the posts it it easy to tell who know what and who doesnt.
It is still all very informative and quite honestly alot of fun to read. Especially if taken for what its worth and that is just another guys opinion take it or leave it.....not harm no foul as far as I am concerned.
The more people that post about these cars the better, if someone stretches the truth it really doesnt affect me, I take it for what its worth.
I hope all keep posting, I think we would all agree if we got together we would all have a ball and there wouldnt be a cross word said......life is too short....enjoy what we are lucky enough to have....a car that most dream about!!!

tom

Craig.

Thank you TB!

Craig

M-Phibian

I agree wholeheartedly to this. Craig seems like a great guy with a passion for cars, who is also very knowledgable without professing to "know it all". There really is no need to bash him whatsoever.

Craig.

Thank you for the kind words M-Phibian!!!!

Craig

cjv

TB993tt,

Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.

As for sustainable hp I am referring to the fact that after a certain point as the temperatures rise the hp decreases. This will happen quicker as the maximum power of the motor becomes greater. It is markly noticable on consecutive multiple dyno runs as well as five mile sprints at WOT.

My reference to Porshe is that a stock Porsche 996tt is advertised @ approx. 415 hp. This would be on the first 1-3 runs. Do six consecutive runs and the power would be reduced just as it would be in a 5 mile WOT jaunt.

As to why Germans don't drive 1000 hp cars? I believe the answer lies with the owners intended use. 9ff, Manthey, TTP and Gemballa markets some big hp motors (750-950 hp) and others are trying to follow. A good reason for the different thought is application. Higher hp turbo motors in the 220-240 CDI motor develops alot of heat which isn't exactly conducive with endurance racing. It seems that somewhere between 550 and 750 hp heat starts to take it's toll quicker. I have no illusions that a 1000 hp motor would do well in any endurance race. Furthermore, larger turbo's introduce less responsiveness with smaller displacement motors. It becomes a tradeoff as to driveability/ longevity and power. This isn't to say one train of thought is right or wrong. In my subjective opinion it comes down to what you as the car owner is really looking for.

TB993tt

I can see why the 415 Porsche 996tt may lose some of its power on a marginally set up test bed (chassis or engine dyno) without suitable cooling protocols in place, but at WOT for 5 miles I totally disagree and to me this is at the centre of the debate.

Porsche have always been good at producing cars which deliver on the road and deliver consistanly in all sorts of environments. I believe a 415hp stock 996tt will still be producing this number (or its adjusted DIN equivalent according to environment) for however many miles you drive it at WOT.

Enter the tuners and this is where the waters get muddied - Most of the numbers quoted are NOT the same as the Porsche numbers to varying degrees, from the 750hp+ numbers which are faintly ridiculous and maybe good for a few drag runs and would be very difficult to maintain since (as you point out) the heat generated would be very hard to contain. To the "Porsche equivalent" hp numbers which seem (for the 996tt) to stop at around the 700hp mark.
9ff does some interesting things and quotes some huge numbers which may be good until the intercooler water sprayer runs dry and the motor has to rely on ambient air - are we to treat his (spray enhanced) numbers as valid ? Yes for a number of minutes and for setting records but you won't be getting your 8XXhp for the whole of a serious 'bahn blast unless you keep stopping for top ups.

With the exception of Manthey the other tuners you quote (IMO) have entered the "hp wars" which is fuelled primarily by buyers ignorance. I have followed their work over the years and virtually all of their cars have underperformed when put to the test. (with the exception of that Gemballa 996 750 which seemed to giv ethe numbers - I don't know enough about who built that one to comment - but one only has to look at some of Gemballa's stuff - like that 3rd intercooler for the 996tt to realise where he's at )

Some of us have been trying to steer the debate away from talking hp numbers and onto verifiable acceleration numbers (on the roll - to avoid trauma of standing starts)) by using GPS accelerometers. This is not quite as simple as hp numbers since one has to factor in weight and ambient temps, but it has to be the way forward. The take up has been surprisingly bad - people spend fortunes on air boxes and diverter valves but don't seem to want to stump up $1K for a device which will tell you what your "hard earned" has actually bought you.

cjv

At the heart of the discussion I believe we are in agreement.

From my point of view, people build their Porsche's for different applications. Just because the car is a performer in one or more application doesn't mean it will perform well in another application. It is not my place to say one person's choice of application is better than another's. Sometimes I forget my own philosophy and regret it after.

I do like your acceleration with GPS approach.

Woodster

I love the GPS approach as well,
good discussion guys (TB and Chad), thousands of us have
learned from you guys. I also have been vocal about the
way we americans seem to use horespower #'s (there is
so much disparity in how they are "estimated" I have all but
stopped looking at them).

This year will be a great one and I intend on pooling with
a couple of my buddies for an AX-11 (just so my wife doesnt
kill me over another $1000 "wasted"). I plan to do
a baseline which will now be my PSI tuned ECU and exhaust,
and then moniter my progress thru future mods via the
acceleration tests.

MK