JasonAndreas

The tranny is not weak, a type-2 overrev IS abuse. If you mis-shift and accelerate your engine upto 9k RPM and the only record is a type-2 overrev in the ECU consider yourself lucky (and go buy lottery tickets). You can't expect the manufacturer to cover damage that is a direct result of your f-up but if the regional/district service manager is using the type-2 excuse indiscriminately than that is a different story.

mike_la_jolla

Nonsense. My REV2 violations occurred after the transmission had failed -- I accidentally shifted in 2nd when I couldn’t get into third. I don’t define that as ‘abuse’. Porsche uses the REV2 violations as a pathetic excuse to avoid covering the transmission repair. My car was not ‘abused’. Not in any way.

02-996ttx50

forgive the threadjack, of the last few days but i didn't know where to post my original query regarding the issue which i am currently dealing with. I found a LOT of valuable ( quite possibly more valuable than i initially thought! ) info facts etc regarding this issue, and will also post in the other forum as well as possibly begin a new thread, if my relatively "new" status as a poster here allows?

but the reason for my post today is this:

i have been in touch with a very prominent ( read "successful" ) attorney who specializes in, guess what?; "Lemon Law" issues here in CA. I know he's good as he got an associate of mine a brand new replacement MBenz and we're talking well over 125k on the cost.

His initial take after hearing my description of MY problem,.. coupled with the fact that i've just through happenstance stumbled in here, and on the rennlist? forum, and found seemingly countless others ( i mean there's a POLL on this very issue for chrissakes!! ) who all have experienced not only the 2nd gear popout issue itself, but the PATTERN!! of PCNA's warranty denial that is systematic when an unassuming customer/owner of these incredible cars encounters when they experience this issue and report, and or attempt to have repaired their cars under normal factory warrantable conditions ( i.e. NO driver abuse, or negligence ) to a dealer. only to be told in MOST cases, that PCNA is (A) UNaware that an issue with the cars exists! ( sure, ok..) and (B) that if the issue occurs, that driver abuse is not only the contributing factor?!, but in fact the only reason this has been occurring at all. ( more BS clearly..)..

The first thing I was asked after I conveyed my recent foray into this issue with my dealership was: "did they begin, once you walked in and reported the problem to attempt to establish this "pattern of denial of warranty coverage" with any Rev1/Rev 2 "violations"?! and also act as if, they'd "never heard of such a thing!!!" gotcha! exactly, what they did..

and they clearly attempt ( systematically, which is where we can get "em! in a class action suit! ) to establish that indeed there was ANY basis for PCNA being able to make ANY claim that the car had been "abused", ( eg driven over redline, even though this isn't a redline issue, PER SE!, although as i've learned, driver abuse could in FACT be a contributory factor, as in the case of a mishift, so patiently explained to me over the phone recently by "Erik" @ carquip whom i "met" in here and who is a VERY helpful and knowledgeable Porsche trans tech, who has been kind enough to contribute in here with VERY insightful and accurate info on this issue as well as the reasons this is in fact even OCCURRING! in these cars and who will fix mine should that ever fall to me, though as i've said, i love a good fight, even though i didn't "ask for it".

but i digress..

but the answer in my case, was a very clear and resounding, NO!. i didn't do SH* T to the car..i redlined it ONCE and SOMEONE else "stage two'd" it, PRIOR to my buying the CERTIFIED car along with a FACTORY PORSCHE WARRANTY!.

...and sorry for the long winded speech.. etc.. the answer to this attorney was a simple, "yes". that's exactly what they did, and it put me IMMEDIATELY on guard, as i related upthread. it was just too odd, that they took this position, when all i did was ask them to address this issue, diagnose and i was instantly made to feel as if (A) I was going to be found responsible for this second gear synchro issue, and that (B) that they were setting me up ( sandbagging me, as i've called it ) for a denial of the claim under the extended factory warranty that i bought with the car. it just FELT wierd! and it turns out.. it IS!

that, for me, is a "no way, ain't gonna fly, lawyers live for this sh*t, i'll find one"..and i have..

so, here's where the issue stands today. i have compiled a sh*tload of this anecdotal stuff, and am in fact prepared to be the lead complainant in a class action ( no upfront costs, all contingency for the plaintiffs attorneys for anyone who joins in it etc..) suit against PCNA should that be in the cards and this material rise to the levels needed to successfully win, which it just well may!!. this will of course depend upon MANY factors, not the least of which will obviously be the scrupulous review of all this anecdotal and circumstancial "evidence" of a PRE EXISTING FACTORY WEAKNESS/DEFECT, that is a MAJOR contributory factor in the very COMMON FAILURE of these transmissions vis a vis second gear etc.

so, anyone wanna join the party, or I should say BE a party to a very real "possible"! class action lawsuit against PCNA for the systematic denial and obfuscation of this KNOWN factory defect in their trans, then please contact me somehow offline ( or on initially..) and i will begin to take names IF this meets the level of a warrantable class action, as my learned attorney at least INITIALLY believes, it will.

I negelected to mention, he's had major experience in dealing against PCNA which i think his primary reason for thinking this is exactly what i have described to him, a situation in which a KNOWN flaw is sloughed off, and the expenses passed along the the "sucker" i mean owner, of this other than this? .... GREAT car.

hit me back if you'd like more info as it becomes available.. and thx for reading.

02-996ttx50

i didn't know where to post my original query regarding the issue which i am currently dealing with. I found a LOT of valuable ( quite possibly more valuable than i initially thought! ) info facts etc regarding this issue, and will also post in the other forum as well as possibly begin a new thread, if my relatively "new" status as a poster here allows?

but the reason for my post today is this:

i have been in touch with a very prominent ( read "successful" ) attorney who specializes in, guess what?; "Lemon Law" issues here in CA. I know he's good as he got an associate of mine a brand new replacement MBenz and we're talking well over 125k on the cost.

His initial take after hearing my description of MY problem,.. coupled with the fact that i've just through happenstance stumbled in here, and on the rennlist? forum, and found seemingly countless others ( i mean there's a POLL on this very issue for chrissakes!! ) who all have experienced not only the 2nd gear popout issue itself, but the PATTERN!! of PCNA's warranty denial that is systematic when an unassuming customer/owner of these incredible cars encounters when they experience this issue and report, and or attempt to have repaired their cars under normal factory warrantable conditions ( i.e. NO driver abuse, or negligence ) to a dealer. only to be told in MOST cases, that PCNA is (A) UNaware that an issue with the cars exists! ( sure, ok..) and (B) that if the issue occurs, that driver abuse is not only the contributing factor?!, but in fact the only reason this has been occurring at all. ( more BS clearly..)..

The first thing I was asked after I conveyed my recent foray into this issue with my dealership was: "did they begin, once you walked in and reported the problem to attempt to establish this "pattern of denial of warranty coverage" with any Rev1/Rev 2 "violations"?! and also act as if, they'd "never heard of such a thing!!!" gotcha! exactly, what they did..

and they clearly attempt ( systematically, which is where we can get "em! in a class action suit! ) to establish that indeed there was ANY basis for PCNA being able to make ANY claim that the car had been "abused", ( eg driven over redline, even though this isn't a redline issue, PER SE!, although as i've learned, driver abuse could in FACT be a contributory factor, as in the case of a mishift, so patiently explained to me over the phone recently by "Erik" @ carquip whom i "met" in here and who is a VERY helpful and knowledgeable Porsche trans tech, who has been kind enough to contribute in here with VERY insightful and accurate info on this issue as well as the reasons this is in fact even OCCURRING! in these cars and who will fix mine should that ever fall to me, though as i've said, i love a good fight, even though i didn't "ask for it".

but i digress..

but the answer in my case, was a very clear and resounding, NO!. i didn't do SH* T to the car..i redlined it ONCE and SOMEONE else "stage two'd" it, PRIOR to my buying the CERTIFIED car along with a FACTORY PORSCHE WARRANTY!.

...and sorry for the long winded speech.. etc.. the answer to this attorney was a simple, "yes". that's exactly what they did, and it put me IMMEDIATELY on guard, as i related upthread. it was just too odd, that they took this position, when all i did was ask them to address this issue, diagnose and i was instantly made to feel as if (A) I was going to be found responsible for this second gear synchro issue, and that (B) that they were setting me up ( sandbagging me, as i've called it ) for a denial of the claim under the extended factory warranty that i bought with the car. it just FELT wierd! and it turns out.. it IS!

that, for me, is a "no way, ain't gonna fly, lawyers live for this sh*t, i'll find one"..and i have..

so, here's where the issue stands today. i have compiled a sh*tload of this anecdotal stuff, and am in fact prepared to be the lead complainant in a class action ( no upfront costs, all contingency for the plaintiffs attorneys for anyone who joins in it etc..) suit against PCNA should that be in the cards and this material rise to the levels needed to successfully win, which it just well may!!. this will of course depend upon MANY factors, not the least of which will obviously be the scrupulous review of all this anecdotal and circumstancial "evidence" of a PRE EXISTING FACTORY WEAKNESS/DEFECT, that is a MAJOR contributory factor in the very COMMON FAILURE of these transmissions vis a vis second gear etc.

so, anyone wanna join the party, or I should say BE a party to a very real "possible"! class action lawsuit against PCNA for the systematic denial and obfuscation of this KNOWN factory defect in their trans, then please contact me somehow offline ( or on initially..) and i will begin to take names IF this meets the level of a warrantable class action, as my learned attorney at least INITIALLY believes, it will.

I negelected to mention, he's had major experience in dealing against PCNA which i think his primary reason for thinking this is exactly what i have described to him, a situation in which a KNOWN flaw is sloughed off, and the expenses passed along the the "sucker" i mean owner, of this other than this? .... GREAT car.

hit me back if you'd like more info as it becomes available.. and thx for reading.

02-996ttx50

bro..

you and i are "local" you gotta get in on this, if there IS a "this" to get in on. i'm gonna know very very soon. is there a way to PM on here??

Dock

Did you check out the date of his post?

ltc

Yes, sign up and become a member.

ltc

Probably not.
From what I can tell, he hasn't posted on RL since 06-30-2007, 08:43 PM

raineycd

Well since this popped up to the top of the forum, it was a pretty good read to kill yesterday evening. One thing that stood out was when the OP got his repaired, did you notice on the invoice they replaced his back tires, etc. Sounds like they abused the car more than he ever could have!

Yeah, how do you ruin two tires and damage a rim "pushing the car onto the lift"? Seriously, how would that happen?

adam_

02-

Is your legal argument going to be:

Porsche failed to design a 2nd gear synchro ring that would withstand normal driver abuse and hence they are responsible?

Clearly, Porsche pays for the 2nd gear issues that were do to MFG errors. They deny those due to missed shifts. Yes, the tranny desgin is particularly susceptible to missed shifts. But it is not a spontaneous event.

I am generally not a fan of Class Actions since the attorney takes the bulk, the lead plantiff takes a piece and all the others get the crumbs.... like a $500 coupon off a new car... whatever. Meanwhile the attorney has used the class to bludgeon the company into multi million dollar legal fee settlements.

Do keep us posted. Maybe starting a dedicated thread as opposed to plastering the same stuff in 5 separate threads (here and 6speed) would be prudent.

isseps

Mike, I purchased a 2004 996 TT X50 a couple of months ago from Porsche. It had 81 level 2 hits. I was concerned but Porsche assured me that it was not an issue and they CPO'd the car and sold it to me. I had the Porsche manager sign the ECU data with the violations for my protection. If they can CPO a car with 81 level 2 hits, then why are they complainging about your few hits? I also got on the phone with the director of CPO and I forget her name and she said that it was not an issue. Porsche has to learn to put their money where their month is. Let me know if you need any help.

ellis

"If the damage described is diagnosed on a transmission, it is very likely to be caused by an assembly fault. This fault causes the gearwheel to become loose and therefore causing the "popping out of gear" condition.

This fault only occurs on transmissions up to the following numbers:
911 Turbo (996), number 6530 and 911 GT2 (996), number 2100"

Doesn't this say pretty much all that needs to be said? Isn't this from their own troubleshooting documentation?

adam_

Well, first it is Porsche's document and they certainly want to draw a hard line around the early failures.

But the broader issue, is that if a manufacturer places a product on the market that has a high likelihood to fail- EVEN if the manufacture calls it abuse-they may be responsible. The concept is that the product has an implied warranty to properly perform when used reasonably.

So if a bunch of people having used general care, still get failures- say due to a design defect, not enough 'meat' on the gears or syncros- a case can be made that Porsche designed a defective tranny.

I'm just sayin....

ellis

I think we are generally in agreement here. The document states implicit acknowledgment of a flaw which is evidenced in the second gear pop-out issue. After said flaw was discovered there is tacit inference that a change was implemented to remedy the flaw.

At this point the attribution of the transmission pop-out issue to anything other than the admitted flaw is disingenuous. To argue that the pop-out condition is attributable to "abuse" would be difficult to argue in light of the admitted flaw which is known to have, or could have, caused the pop-out condition.

You have to ask: Have any of the transmissions after the evident fix number sequence experienced the pop-out issue, even after subjected to "abuse"?

02-996ttx50

i was more than a little fast and loose with the cut and pasting. mea culpa..

the dealership has assumed full responsibility for the repair of my transmission.
they could not possibly have been more helpful. this is the net result of my experience. this is all the more encouraging given the fact that i am a first time buyer ( with them, but not of porsche ) of a 7 year old car, which makes their response to my situation even more stellar. i'm not even sure that having had prior access to all of this info before i began with the dealership, even factored into their decision which was swift, certain, and without any hassle at all.

the fact that i sought counsel immediately after consulting with my dealership is just my way of making up for my initial LACK of due dilligence prior to my having bought the car. because as i initially stated, they did make me a bit "nervous" when i first walked in the door. my most recent experiences regarding warranty issues have been with BMW, and my experience with them over the last ten plus years is, they just "fix your car". never even a conversation, beyond a diagnosis of the problem.

so, at the end of the day, i have to believe it's because they genuinely value my business, recognized there was a problem ( as the warranty coverage and subsequent repair is at the very least a tacit admission of that, no? ).. and it's exactly the kind of response and resolution that will bring me back to buy from them again...and the next one will cost a great deal more than this one did. so their long view position is wise.

needless to say i am very relieved, but there ya have it.