Dock

You're missing the point on the "involvement" issue. The involvement is "being in the loop"...having to make decisions *and* incorporate skill. To drive the Turbo 6 speed in a seamless manner, in all driving conditions, requires attention to detail, situational awareness, and good motor skills. It's the synergy of these three things that makes the 6 speed so satisfying... no matter what the driving conditions are.


This relates to the "decisions" part of involvement. A 6 speed owner could easily be loafing along in traffic in terms of speed (mph) while keeping the rpm's at 3500-4000, ready to use the car's best gear/rpm if needed. Besides, I can't remember the last time where the Turbo didn't have enough power to accomplish a desired traffic move even when I was a gear or two away from optimum.

Darkworx

But we still love each other as Turborites, right? C'mon people! Where's the love!?!?!?!

And AS, GREAT POINT!!! Thank you

Side post question: Does any TIP driver here drive the car purely in the "MANUAL" mode the car offers?

This is become a good discussion...

1AS

Dock,
Have you ever driven either a race car with a Jericho or Hewland, or a shifter kart? If you haven't, I will offer the use of my Kurtis if you want to visit the midwest.(A Jericho requires the clutch only for launch)Taking away the need for a clutch doesn't diminish the driving experience, but it sure speeds up shifting. The best drivers today use left foot braking, which is certainly impaired by our clutch-requiring manuals. I don't think those drivers feel less involved. Using one foot on the brake to establish a drift angle on entry is facilitated by having your other foot on the throttle to maintain it on exit.

I think e-gas which doesn't allow the simultaneous use of gas and brake is a more significant diminution of control options.

If you want to maximize the value of coordination and involvement, maybe we should request the option of deleting the synchros. That would certainly increase the need for concentration and skill.
Engineering that allows focus on the real essentials like line, threshold braking, and steering correction is a plus, at least in my opinion.
For competition or track purposes, the paddle shifters which match revs are essential for avoiding unsettling the car, especially if competing cars have that feature. Are you opposed to computerized rev-matching too? For the street, how about rain-sensing wipers, or the speed-related volume enhancement of the stereo?
I guess if I wanted constant "commitment" to driving, I'd always disable the skid control too.
In regard to keeping the car at high revs on the highway to maximize acceleration, that just seems wasteful to me, aside from the drone. Personally, I like to cruise at the lowest revs the engine is comfortable with. Our tanks are small enough, that just the inconvienience of extra gas stops would bother me. But, I may drive my car a bit more than most.
Seemingly, we differ on a number of issues, but, the debate is interesting AS

Dock

I have not driven either a Jericho or Hewland, and appreciate the offer to try them out...I might do that.

I don't track my Turbo, and if I did the 6 speed would still be my choice. Not using the clutch would diminish my experience. The left foot braking is a non-issue, because like you said, our Turbos won't allow the driver to do that while on throttle.

As for the deleting the synchros, I didn't see that on the option list. When I drive my 280Z I normally don't use the clutch except for the launch and the stop, and the involvement is very rewarding.

Rain sensing wipers? What are those? I've never used mine, and would have deleted them if given the option of doing so.

I rarely listen to my radio/CD, and when I do I just turn up the volume if needed.

Keeping my Europipe in the 3500-4000 rpm range is one of the best sounds the exhaust makes...I drive in that range as much as I can...it's a "sports car". I don't worry a lick about the gas burn, or stopping for a fill up.

I come from a background where multitasking was critical, and I still really like practicing the art. My Turbo is the best available vehicle for providing that practice..for me "process" is just as important as "product".

These discussions are great, and I have no problem with those that choose differently because of personal desires.

Dustman

I bought the Tip (had 6sp C4 previously) because of Los Angeles traffic. 90% of the time I wish I had the stick, and I am not a very good stick driver at all. Consistent? In the Tip, sure. Fun, in the Tip not so much. Tough to be in the right powerband in tight twisty canyon corners in this Tip, at least the way teh car is geared vs the corners I am driving on a daily basis. I miss some of the fun. I know if i had the 6sp I would be hating life the 10% of the time traffic is horrendous. I debated for more than 6mo. What do I reco? Find owners nearby that let you drive along and drive a Tip and a 6sp for a while (not a dealer drive) and see if that helps. To be fair, the 6sp and clutch in this car is very easy to use too. So much lag with the Tip that I immediately "had" to get the car to stage 2. The lack of "+/-" shifting on the gear selector is annoying too, esp since my other cars are a V8 Volvo SUV with 300+ HP and a 540ia Dinan Stage 2 with Tip that have great selectors.
Still a damn fun car once you get PSS9's (or other) and chip and exhaust.
I hope that helps.

Craig.

Yes. I NEVER drive in the automatic mode. Rather, I ALWAYS drive in the manual mode. As such, I feel very "involved" as I drive my Tip.

Craig

Shark

Sounds like you want a manual. Honestly, traffic is no big deal. Our rush hour traffic in Houston is pretty heinous but I NEVER wish I had an automatic.

1AS

Dustman,
When you drive your tip, have you experimented with the speed at which you floor the throttle? I found that the tip works best when you give it really clear signals. The clearest is the hardest, quickest mashing of the gas pedal you can muster. The next ones are hard braking as you approach a corner, and the third is significant side loading in the corner.
If you depress the throttle at less than maximal speed, the car doesn't read your desire for an instant downshift. AS

Dustman

Yes AS....when I need it, I mash and it responds, just not off the line until spool up.

DFW01TT

I bought the Tip because I've done enough shifting (so far) to make me happy.
I do enjoy coming into a corner and giving a quick blip on the throttle and having the car downshift, it seems to work quicker than the switch on the steering wheel.

Dock, no gas and brake use together? I've gotta' be a more "sensitive guy". It always seemed to work for me.

wross996tt

I own 2 cars with tiptronic (Audi and VW) and a couple with automatic (Lexi)...my Porsche is manual. I must say that I just don't get the tiptronic...boring IMO. I love shifting up and down in the P-car. I would never get a tip. The only reason I have 2 is it came with the automatic. One is my wife's car and the other my daughter's (this is not to say they are for women).

johnyg

I think if you compare the fun of a six speed and the control of manual tip driving the 6 speed is still more fun. I however have yet to find any one around here that can outrun my chipped tip with theer six speeds. The tip can be boring and uncertain in easy driving situations. It likes to upshift as soon as possible for fuel economy. However within 2 laps of spiritied driving it knows what you want as long as you are driving it spiritedly. It is fast so don't buy the arguement that it is slowere. Because of the gearing once it is chipped that 1,2 3 gear acceleration up to 125 is hard to outrun and easy to reproduce. I love my tip but would like a six speed as well. For most of us cruising around with a mix of traffic and highway either would do. Get what you prefer because the seem to run about the same in a race situation.

Shark

Haha....I just saw it called a "girltronic" on another forum :d

fbfisher

Dock, it is clear from your assumptions above that you have never taken the time to master a Tip driven in manual mode. "Involvement" "decisions" are all key elements in driving BOTH the Tip (in Manual) and a 6. Come to Los Angeles, and I'll take you into our canyons and show you just how "involving" they can be, and just what occurs when you make the wrong decision. After showing you what I have accomplished, I'll hand you the wheel and you will see that without lots of time behind the wheel, you won't have the skill required to master the Tip.

:cheeers:

tkerrmd

fb it is easier to see Docks point of view than yours (although both valid no insults intended). I have driven a tip at the race track for many, many hours. (dont know about scary street driving in CA) anyway in my experience, the car upshifts itself at or near red line if lucky and downshifts are done at will (no heel toe!) and the car wont let you over down shift, ie the skill and Docks "involvement" mean you can ruin you car without the skills in a six speed but have the cars electronics to CYA with a tip. I think that is the point. No one can agree the skill and involvement in a tip is what it is with a stick. Are they both fast yes, both fun yes, do I have both yes!

tom