Greg Fishman

The sway bar setting makes a difference in the "harshness" of the ride?

Is this a new attribute they designed the 996 with?

brh986

Ok first off you just called a CL600 a sports car. If that's not a stupid unitelligent comment I don't know what is. You don't get much further away from a sports car than with a CL 600. Even an AMG isn't even clsoe to a "sports car" Secondly he hit the nail right on the head in saying that the turbo feels much more like a GT car rather than a sports car. (Note a Ferrari 456 M is a GT car, that doesn't mean it's slow). The turbo feels heavy and less sporty than the rest of the lineup, it also has a terrible clutch feel, its' very light and teh takeup is all the way at the top. Other than it's a nice car it just doesn't have an extremely sporty feel.

And to those calling the GT3 gutless bellow 5,000 rpms:

#1 it's not even close to gutless (as was mentioned acceleration times from are in line with a Turbo).

#2 It's designed directly off a race car. Race cars have all the power up high because that's where they use it. Cars with race car like characteristics are more FUN TO DRIVE. Ever drive an S2000? That car really could be called completely gutless below 6,000 rpm but it's extremely fun to drive. Try it. I imagine a GT3 will be somewhat like an S2000 on steroids. If you hate the S2000 you probably would be happier with a different porsche.

Last but not least on the PCCB making the car faster issue. It will. Anythign that lightens the car increases acceleration (not top speed however which is determined by drag coeficient and available horsepower and in rare cases redline). Also this is unsprung weigth so it will have an even more pronounced effect. I would say 44 lbs lightening of the interior would not have a noticeable or measurable effect however I'm not sure how much more pronounced the effect is upon acceleration when it's unsprung weight. It should make the car noticeably more responsive handling wise.

RR

T Man,

The GT3 is seam welded.
The Turbo isn't.
The GT3's firmness and tightness has very little to do with whether a windshield squeaks or not, BTW mine does not squeak at all.
To know the difference in tightness you have to experience BOTH cars. But you obviously have not done that, so how you may come up with your conclusions is beyond anyone on this board.
I fail to realize how the ownership of a hopped up Zapper, C5 and your Dad's CL600 is to make up for the fact that you have never seen or ridden in a GT3?

Sun Ra

hey greg,

have you tried it on a gt2/gt3? i have. while the sway's main attribute is to reduce roll, on these suspensions there is a strong secondary effect of stiffening or harshening the ride. try driving a bumpy nasty road with both bars a 4, then try it again at 2. low and behold, you will bounce sideways less in bumpy corners and slam the bumps with a more lincoln-like serenity and wallow.... amazing!

btw, i think i'm gonna go fikse but thanks for the info on the mag.s

and greg, another ?: on very high speed tracks, do you ever toe out?

Trojan Man

No, I don't think so. You see, my comments were in response to your slams of the Turbo. Since I own a turbo, I think I know about it pretty well.

My comments had NOTHING to do with reviewing the GT3 in any way.

MJones

Porsche racecars are RWD= C2, GT2, &3
Comparing a Turbo to a GT3, is apples to oranges

Trojan Man

I forgot to mention one thing - a few people, including RR have said "if you want a sports car, go with a GT3" or "a turbo is more of a GT instead of a sports car".

I would disagree with both of these comments.

Mercedes & BMW obviously belong in the GT class, I do agree with this.

In the sports car class, I think that ALL Porsches (except Cayenne) fit this category and I doubt that anyone with a properly screwed on head would argue this point.

What I believe that the high and mighty GT3 owners mean is that the GT3 is in the RACE CAR class. That is, after all, what the GT3 is supposed to be, right?

Yes, the GT3 is factory-designed to perform better than a Turbo in a track environment. Still, I fail to see how that means that the Turbo is not a true sports car...it's just not a true race car.

In the end, it all comes down to driving ability anyway. I remember my very first day at the track - I was being passed by a bone stock BMW 325 sedan. Does that mean that a 325 sedan is more of a sports car than my Turbo? I don't think so.

Greg Fishman

Watt,
I usually set my car up with about 2-5mm toe in up front and a touch more in the back if I remember correctly. Toe out in the rear is probably not a very smart thing in a rear weight biased car.

I have ridden/driven a GT2 but never made any changes in the swaybar.
Changing the bar setting does make the car stiffer but I am surprised it is enough to really notice. I know I don't when I change it in my race car or even in my street car. I do notice the balance change as it is very obvious.

Good luck with the Fikse's, they are nice wheels also.
Greg

Sun Ra

greg,

i was surprised to find andial toed my car out .22 degrees in the front for speed[actual reading], total toe out .44 degrees!!!!. their sheet had toe out at .13 degrees. i believe this toe out made the wheels fight each other leading to a feeling of no stability, or no caster... what do you think? andial also had my bars at 4/4.

factory toe is 0 to .08 degrees toe out. roland runs his ruf at 0 for very high speed. remember we put less than .3 g cornering force on in the open road races, the primary goal is high speed tracking and stability at 150-200 mph...

i'm at .08 degrees toe out right now with bars at 2front/3 rear to remove understeer i find at 2/2 bar settings. plan is to experiemnt between .08 and neutral... and maybe increase bars to 3/4 for v. hi speed. ideas?

E. J. - 993 Alumni

Man, this thread is just wacky. To start with, you have a guy posting that he's not sure if the GT3 is for him. Fine, in and of itself. But then it goes crazy with comparisons to the GT2 and TT. Who the hell is asking about those two cars?

I have a feeling that if you have to ask if the GT3 is for you, it may not be. It is the pinnacle of NA performance. That means it rides rougher on the street (better for the track), has wider and taller powerband (better for the track), has adjustable sway bars (better for the track - though not needed for 99% of drivers out there), and has the best street tires ever made for a sports car. If you think you may be bothered by these things, then don't buy it. Buy a Carrera - very nice and fast car. If you're not going to ever go the track, then you probably don't need the GT3. Buy a Carrera - a very nice and fast car.

That answers the initial question, now on to the fun stuff. The TT guys don't like their cars being called GT cars - too bad. Should have bought a 360 for the same money then. The TT is overweight, AWD and really fast in a straight line. None of those are especially impressive for a sports car.

The GT2, now thats a fast car. Fast in the turns and on the straights. Pretty damn pricey though, and I would imagine at twice the price, it does not deliver twice the fun as a GT3. In fact, I would bet it doesnt. To say the GT3 is gutless, shows ones ignorance. Is it lower powered than the GT2 - Duh.

Finally, its really telling that in this thread, the GT2 and TT guys come in bashing the competition (GT3) to cover up their own shortcomings, while the GT3 guys simply state their case and move on. Truth be told, the GT3 guys are probably glad that more poseurs aren't able to get the GT3 due to such limited production numbers. I mean, look around at the guys who are buying GT3s: real professional racers like Lynn Wilson, and real professional individuals who know the difference like Viken and other friends of mine who don't feel the need to pound their chests in public. You don't know them, but you will when they drive past your TT/GT2 on the track before you even recognize the car.

Wanna impress your friends with 175mph straightaway speeds, buy a TT. Wanna calmly and smoothly eat the competition for lunch, then poop them out your butt before they know what drove around their GT car on the outisde of turn 1, buy a GT3. Its really that simple.

E. J.

Greg Fishman

Maybe the 996 is a different animal when it comes to toe settings but I found that my car wandered, had no high speed stability and turned it so hard it broke the rear end loose when I had about 4mm toe out in the front. I wouldn't be surpised if that is why you are feeling that instability.

Can't really advise you on the bars without having some time behind the wheel but if you aren't doing much cornering I wouldn't think it would matter much as long as you kept the same difference f/r.

Sun Ra

thanks greg!!!


e.j. our hero!!

it's a great car but how much mountain driving and open road racing do you do? any reason you would prefer a gt3 to a gt2 for that usage? we're here to learn.

generally, you reached the same conclusions about gt3's appropriateness for Mark, didnt you? when Mark and i spoke at length on the phone about his potential purchase, a large portion of his interest, as he indicated here again, was in TT and GT2 as alternatives. but pardon us.

and gt2's are readily available NEW for 140-150 which is hardly more than a gt3 w/ leather and special paint. my gt3 was 111 window with pccb and xenon. so price/value goes to gt2 at today's market. not twice the price, but you know better than us having never driven one. but i only base my conclusion on direct experience, having owned and driven both, i'm sorry i prefer gt2 due to its torque advantage. duh!

and gt3's are way too soft for real tracking, as is readily admitted by the factory design team, say 75% softer than a track gt3??? you know better than us.

the euro guys are already changing their suspensions... for the track


we're all here for fun so lighten up!!!

Karl S

Watt, I've been trolling this thread and been reading your opinions with some amusement. I know you owned a GT3 for a couple of days but would you care to elaborate on how you arrived at this conclusion?

I know of several pro racing drivers who have had stock GT3s on actual race tracks (as opposed to canyon runs) and none of them have complained that the car was too soft. One of them was turning times at Lime Rock that would have put him mid-pack in qualifying for the Club race in the C stock class and he was on well used Sport Cups, not Hoosiers. He was only 4 seconds off his pole time at LRP in a GT3 Cup! Not bad for a too soft car on used street tires

Of course, a GT3 is softer than a Cup car (the actual number is more like 60%), it is not intended to be a full out race car. A Cup car is way too stiff for the street. The GT3 is a street car first and foremost, so it must be tuned for street driving. If you were going to race one competitively, would you stiffen it up? Sure you would, just as you would stiffen up any street car. BTW, a Cup car from the factory is about 35% softer than a GT3 RS, does that mean it is too soft for the track?

Who are your sources on the Porsche design team? I'd like to talk to one of them about spring rates.

Karl

Trojan Man

Funny EJ, I seem to recall it being the other way around. RR started by bashing the Turbo, and I responded NOT by bashing the GT3, but by defending the merits of the turbo.

I would love for you to point out any instance where I said that the GT3 is an inferior vehicle. Oops...there are none!! But wait, then you came around and did some more Turbo-bashing. Who's the one bashing the competition now?

In fact, I conceded that the GT3 is in fact supposed to be more like a street-legal racecar instead of just a plain old "sports car".

All I want you guys to recognize is that the Turbo is FAR more than a GT car. I guarantee you that a properly driven Turbo can far outrun and out maneuver ANY "GT" car like the SL55, M3 and Maserati.

Put about $5K worth of suspension and tires on the Turbo and it's quite possible we'd be running circles around you GT3 guys all day.

Hubert

Why not just pick some intermediary, bring the three cars, and have an objective party post their impression; a non-owner would be best. Either that, or take all the talk to the track, and compare lap times set by a hot shoe pro in one of each... seems like this bench racing stuff goes too far into personal to serve any appreciable advisory purpose.