GT2 Vs GT3 Vs 996TT
09-05-2003, 07:58 AM
#76
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Racer63 - if you look at an earlier post in the thread you'll see I'm not against modifying a car per se, including improving the torque, just surprised at the apparent desire to produce what is potentially an unusable degree of power. Hence my use of the word 'extreme'. Having had a lot of work done on a 944 turbo a few years ago, such as waste gate, chip, suspension, steering etc, I do appreciate the value of complementary adaptation to a car. It just strikes me that it's possible to go into overkill.
Far from suspension being a holy grail, I'm in favour of whatever improvements it takes to assist the average to competetent driver. For want of a better example, the single most effective improvement to the handling on my bike was to change the stock exhaust which was way too heavy. The case in point - if a power increase will flatter and aid a driver, then fine - it's whatever it takes for each specific driver, and each specific car. But with cars that are already this highly engineered and powerful, in practical terms this generally relates to the handling and setup. I still fail to see how having a 700BHP car as opposed to a 600BHP car is of any practical value other than on a track, given, as you say, the inevitable limitation of driver ability in the vast majority of cases. But, hey, you can still compare dyno tests. Great!
As pointed out, I've never driven a TT with that level of upgrade, so I stand to be corrected. That's why I'm here on the board. I can't think that I disagree with any of the points you've made, but it seems to come down to the degree of modification.
Far from suspension being a holy grail, I'm in favour of whatever improvements it takes to assist the average to competetent driver. For want of a better example, the single most effective improvement to the handling on my bike was to change the stock exhaust which was way too heavy. The case in point - if a power increase will flatter and aid a driver, then fine - it's whatever it takes for each specific driver, and each specific car. But with cars that are already this highly engineered and powerful, in practical terms this generally relates to the handling and setup. I still fail to see how having a 700BHP car as opposed to a 600BHP car is of any practical value other than on a track, given, as you say, the inevitable limitation of driver ability in the vast majority of cases. But, hey, you can still compare dyno tests. Great!
As pointed out, I've never driven a TT with that level of upgrade, so I stand to be corrected. That's why I'm here on the board. I can't think that I disagree with any of the points you've made, but it seems to come down to the degree of modification.
Last edited by Fozzy; 09-05-2003 at 09:12 AM.
09-05-2003, 09:20 AM
#77
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Amen Racer 63
Ok I'm finally going to weigh in. In my opinion, most of the people who street their cars and have the huge upgrades are wasting the majority of the benefit or are reckless. Unless all you do is drag race, you simply cannot safely drive any car at the limit on the steet. Those who have been to the track adn can drive at the limit know what I am talking about.
While it may be fun to go from 0-80mph, it isn't challenging or much fun when compared to flying into a 90 degree turn at 130 mph, hitting your braking point and going to full threshold braking, nailing the turn in at the limit with trailing braking, squeezing the throttle as you clip your apex, still at the limit, and then finally squeezing the throttle as much as possible and barely making your track out, still at the limit. This is just one turn. You simply can't do this on the street safely and it is absolutely exhilarating.
This is why I, and Racer 63, AS, and others want to modify our cars. You can definitely see, feel, and fully realize the benefits of upgrades on the track, if you're a good driver. On the street, not often, not fully, and not safely.
I'm not saying its still not cool to modify your car even if you only street it. Just you can't realize the full capabilites without getting on the track.
Tim
While it may be fun to go from 0-80mph, it isn't challenging or much fun when compared to flying into a 90 degree turn at 130 mph, hitting your braking point and going to full threshold braking, nailing the turn in at the limit with trailing braking, squeezing the throttle as you clip your apex, still at the limit, and then finally squeezing the throttle as much as possible and barely making your track out, still at the limit. This is just one turn. You simply can't do this on the street safely and it is absolutely exhilarating.
This is why I, and Racer 63, AS, and others want to modify our cars. You can definitely see, feel, and fully realize the benefits of upgrades on the track, if you're a good driver. On the street, not often, not fully, and not safely.
I'm not saying its still not cool to modify your car even if you only street it. Just you can't realize the full capabilites without getting on the track.
Tim
09-05-2003, 09:55 AM
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Re: Amen Racer 63
Originally posted by ColorChange
Ok I'm finally going to weigh in. In my opinion, most of the people who street their cars and have the huge upgrades are wasting the majority of the benefit or are reckless. Unless all you do is drag race, you simply cannot safely drive any car at the limit on the steet. Those who have been to the track adn can drive at the limit know what I am talking about.
While it may be fun to go from 0-80mph, it isn't challenging or much fun when compared to flying into a 90 degree turn at 130 mph, hitting your braking point and going to full threshold braking, nailing the turn in at the limit with trailing braking, squeezing the throttle as you clip your apex, still at the limit, and then finally squeezing the throttle as much as possible and barely making your track out, still at the limit. This is just one turn. You simply can't do this on the street safely and it is absolutely exhilarating.
This is why I, and Racer 63, AS, and others want to modify our cars. You can definitely see, feel, and fully realize the benefits of upgrades on the track, if you're a good driver. On the street, not often, not fully, and not safely.
I'm not saying its still not cool to modify your car even if you only street it. Just you can't realize the full capabilites without getting on the track.
Tim
Ok I'm finally going to weigh in. In my opinion, most of the people who street their cars and have the huge upgrades are wasting the majority of the benefit or are reckless. Unless all you do is drag race, you simply cannot safely drive any car at the limit on the steet. Those who have been to the track adn can drive at the limit know what I am talking about.
While it may be fun to go from 0-80mph, it isn't challenging or much fun when compared to flying into a 90 degree turn at 130 mph, hitting your braking point and going to full threshold braking, nailing the turn in at the limit with trailing braking, squeezing the throttle as you clip your apex, still at the limit, and then finally squeezing the throttle as much as possible and barely making your track out, still at the limit. This is just one turn. You simply can't do this on the street safely and it is absolutely exhilarating.
This is why I, and Racer 63, AS, and others want to modify our cars. You can definitely see, feel, and fully realize the benefits of upgrades on the track, if you're a good driver. On the street, not often, not fully, and not safely.
I'm not saying its still not cool to modify your car even if you only street it. Just you can't realize the full capabilites without getting on the track.
Tim
However not sure that's the point here. Again. to reiterate, it's the output element I'm at odds with. When you're pumping out 500+BHP, is there an appreciable difference in performance between say, 680 / 700 / 720 BHP? I've always assumed that at this degree it's very marginal, even on a track, and that we're talking semantics. Which is why I'm occasionally surprised at some of the power-based threads on this board, following a general theme which seems more appropriate to the 'Max Power' Jap car crowd. This is a genuine question, not a rant.
I'm interested to know.
09-05-2003, 10:18 AM
#79
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I'm glad Racer63 said it. My X50 is a daily driver (now 17,000 miles), and I'm not quite seing how I could use more power. Everyone uses the 0-60 time or 0-100 time as a benchmark of performance. I don't see another 100 hp impacting 0-60 significantly, since the 1-2 upshift is so early, and you aren't in either gear enough time to get full boost for long, if at all. Sure, you can impact 60-100, but how often can you do that on the street? To impact 0-60, you'd need to change the gearbox, and be willing to torture your own car.
On a track for 20 miles, your right foot is to the floor for 10 miles. I doubt if the craziest guy on this board can drive pedal-to-the-floor for one mile out of 20 on the street.
I've owned several cars with more than 570 hp (my interest is street-licensed race cars- so these are dyno-verified numbers) and have learned that you can never use all the power on the street. It's mostly there for short"oh wow" bursts, which are entertaining but aren't really "driving". I'm all for having fun, and I do appreciate the thrill of horsepower, but all the power mods are about that thrill, and have little to do with usable power, unless you take it to the track.
Having said all that, faster at the track is usually about skill more than hp. The guys who are fast with lots of hp are the same guys who are fast with less. I also had the interesting experience of taking a Bondurant instructor to our local track for 1-on-1 coaching. At the end of the day, he was still 2 seconds per lap faster than I, in my own car. I don't know how much I'd have to boost performance to bridge that gap. Learning to drive better seems like the more sensible route. AS
On a track for 20 miles, your right foot is to the floor for 10 miles. I doubt if the craziest guy on this board can drive pedal-to-the-floor for one mile out of 20 on the street.
I've owned several cars with more than 570 hp (my interest is street-licensed race cars- so these are dyno-verified numbers) and have learned that you can never use all the power on the street. It's mostly there for short"oh wow" bursts, which are entertaining but aren't really "driving". I'm all for having fun, and I do appreciate the thrill of horsepower, but all the power mods are about that thrill, and have little to do with usable power, unless you take it to the track.
Having said all that, faster at the track is usually about skill more than hp. The guys who are fast with lots of hp are the same guys who are fast with less. I also had the interesting experience of taking a Bondurant instructor to our local track for 1-on-1 coaching. At the end of the day, he was still 2 seconds per lap faster than I, in my own car. I don't know how much I'd have to boost performance to bridge that gap. Learning to drive better seems like the more sensible route. AS
09-05-2003, 12:28 PM
#80
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I agree, you cannot possibly use the power. However, it is nice to have and for those short bursts that you can use it, I am sure it is well worth it. The mods are fairly inexpensive anyway, so why not?
-Lou
-Lou
09-05-2003, 01:14 PM
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Well, just to clarify what I said earlier, I didn't really say that you can't enjoy more HP on the street. And, for the record, I think that you can enjoy all of your upgrades on the street without being irresponsible.
On the street, when no one else is around, I drive in what I call 9/10 autocross mode. I might do a heel and toe downshift with rapid deceleration (some brake upgrades like ss lines enhance the experience), take a corner at say 9/10 of my true auto-x or road race cornering speed (handling upgrades enhance here), then accelerate like a bat out of hell to the 75th percentile speed for the area (HP upgrades help here). Bascially, it's kind of a vintage racer on an autocross course mode of driving. No one is at risk, it's fun, and the upgrades enhance the experience.
On a road course, well that's a different story...
One last point, I do agree that the more peak HP is better approach is, well, sometimes flawed from a performance standpoint. Ideally, for most forms of racing, you want more area under the power curve not greater peak HP.
Cheers.
On the street, when no one else is around, I drive in what I call 9/10 autocross mode. I might do a heel and toe downshift with rapid deceleration (some brake upgrades like ss lines enhance the experience), take a corner at say 9/10 of my true auto-x or road race cornering speed (handling upgrades enhance here), then accelerate like a bat out of hell to the 75th percentile speed for the area (HP upgrades help here). Bascially, it's kind of a vintage racer on an autocross course mode of driving. No one is at risk, it's fun, and the upgrades enhance the experience.
On a road course, well that's a different story...
One last point, I do agree that the more peak HP is better approach is, well, sometimes flawed from a performance standpoint. Ideally, for most forms of racing, you want more area under the power curve not greater peak HP.
Cheers.
09-05-2003, 01:36 PM
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Fozzy,
Obviously, you've never done a run from 60mph to 150mph or better yet 60mph-200mph, have you?
This is where the 700+ hp comes in really handy! You would be surprised at how fast you can hit triple digit speeds from a roll with that much power and AWD. It's pretty cool.
That's what open road racing in Nevada is for.
Passing is just plain easy. If ALL you guys cared about was track performance, yall would have bought GT3's. Dealers couldn't keep them in stock. Obviously the demand (or lack thereof) for this car proves that Americans at least don't really understand the GT3 or don't care about track performance.
I enjoy the car in the canyons as well as on the track. Put it this way, my dealer tech told me the other day I need to take it easy with my car, as he sees me hitting redline and high revs all the time.
I guess I should have bought that GT3 after all, cause let me tell you, I use most of my available power every single day. If you think I'm full of it, ask Wilber or Watt or anyone who's driven with me.
Obviously, you've never done a run from 60mph to 150mph or better yet 60mph-200mph, have you?
This is where the 700+ hp comes in really handy!
You would be surprised at how fast you can hit triple digit speeds from a roll with that much power and AWD. It's pretty cool.That's what open road racing in Nevada is for.
Passing is just plain easy. If ALL you guys cared about was track performance, yall would have bought GT3's. Dealers couldn't keep them in stock. Obviously the demand (or lack thereof) for this car proves that Americans at least don't really understand the GT3 or don't care about track performance.
I enjoy the car in the canyons as well as on the track. Put it this way, my dealer tech told me the other day I need to take it easy with my car, as he sees me hitting redline and high revs all the time.
I guess I should have bought that GT3 after all, cause let me tell you, I use most of my available power every single day. If you think I'm full of it, ask Wilber or Watt or anyone who's driven with me.
09-05-2003, 01:40 PM
#84
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Hmm
Racer63 - I think you can enjoy some of the upgrades, but not much of them and not for very long. Anything past this and you are really pushing the risk envelope, in my opinion. Like I said "On the street, not often, not fully, and not safely."
AS - You need to get a data collection system! It will tell you exactly how you are driving and exactly how the instructor gained time on you. I can't emphasize how valuable of a tool this is. And, it's just plain neat to analyze lap to lap, different lines, etc. It also helps immensely in setting up the car.
Tim
AS - You need to get a data collection system! It will tell you exactly how you are driving and exactly how the instructor gained time on you. I can't emphasize how valuable of a tool this is. And, it's just plain neat to analyze lap to lap, different lines, etc. It also helps immensely in setting up the car.
Tim
09-05-2003, 01:51 PM
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Re: Hmm
Originally posted by ColorChange
Racer63 - I think you can enjoy some of the upgrades, but not much of them and not for very long. Anything past this and you are really pushing the risk envelope, in my opinion. Like I said "On the street, not often, not fully, and not safely."
AS - You need to get a data collection system! It will tell you exactly how you are driving and exactly how the instructor gained time on you. I can't emphasize how valuable of a tool this is. And, it's just plain neat to analyze lap to lap, different lines, etc. It also helps immensely in setting up the car.
Tim
Racer63 - I think you can enjoy some of the upgrades, but not much of them and not for very long. Anything past this and you are really pushing the risk envelope, in my opinion. Like I said "On the street, not often, not fully, and not safely."
AS - You need to get a data collection system! It will tell you exactly how you are driving and exactly how the instructor gained time on you. I can't emphasize how valuable of a tool this is. And, it's just plain neat to analyze lap to lap, different lines, etc. It also helps immensely in setting up the car.
Tim
From my perspective, I don't have to floor it from 0 - 200 to enjoy 640 HP. Just a quick burst in 2nd (like I would do in an autocross) puts a smile on my face and makes the commute much more enjoyable. Having high HP (or handling/braking upgrades) does not mean that you have to operate at the limit for an extended period of time, or otherwise put others at risk on the street, to enjoy it.
On the data collection topic, you are right on the money. I wrote an article for SportsCar (the SCCA's magazine) a few years back on the topic. If anyone is interested, I can email a Word copy (pre editors changes).
09-05-2003, 02:19 PM
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Re: Send it
Originally posted by ColorChange
Racers 63
Send it to my pm. I would like to read it.
Tim
Racers 63
Send it to my pm. I would like to read it.
Tim
09-05-2003, 03:50 PM
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It says "your message is too long. Reduce your message to 2000 characters. It is currently 26894 characters long".
Why don't you shoot me your email and I'll send it as an attachment.
Unfortunately it doesn't have the nice graphics that are in the published article. But, it's still pretty decent. And, it was a great way to get free track time at the Daley Academy.
Why don't you shoot me your email and I'll send it as an attachment.
Unfortunately it doesn't have the nice graphics that are in the published article. But, it's still pretty decent. And, it was a great way to get free track time at the Daley Academy.