cjv

The GT2 is a very nice Porsche. The one thing I like about them is Porsche made so few. The facts are the turbo can come within approx. eighty pounds of the GT2. Important yes, but not really a sway point to me one way or another.

Power to the ground. The GT2 is limited by the size of it's rear wheels and no available traction to the front wheels. The GT2 is somewhat limited to 500-530 flywheel hp (about 450 rwhp). Anything more than that in acceleration runs is wasted. It just can't connect the power to the ground. Once you are into third gear, additional power can be used, but handling starts to become a problem in many situations. It is not unlike being top speed limited by your aerodynamics. The turbo has the ability to place far more power to the ground and it's grip, with proper modifications, will make a GT2 blush.

Back to the grip and handling. In circumstances where it is advantageous to throw out your back end and let it slide, the GT2 will do this better. A lot of people find this to be a lot of fun. The GT2 suspension in the stock forum, is a better suspension. This is one aspect, riders quote a better "feel." There is much more to adjust and work with in the GT2 suspension. My solution was to install the GT2 suspension on the turbo. Yes, with the exception of "losing my a$$ end" while going around a turn, I have the same feel. We have conducted a few turbo/GT2 comparisons with my car, outside of a very few situations, the turbo is the all around quicker platform when set up properly.

Fozzy

As may have been gathered from the previous post I personally (note 'personally', before I alienate half of the board with a single sentence) feel that extreme modding of BHP for BHP's sake is primarily an ego game at this level. Really don't want to induce more testosterone fuelled chest-beating again, but I can't quite see the point. 535 BHP vs 540 vs 552 vs 552.001... ad infinitum. So what?

However, better qualify the earlier statement and say I do completely see the value in upgrading suspension and handling on any car, whether TT or GT2, which in my limited experience of after-market modifications seems to be a much more worthwhile exercise.

Hamann7

Fozzy, it's not chest beating... 700hp + upgraded suspension + R Compound Tires - weight = A REALLY FAST CAR!

I don't have my car for profiling, as you can ask anyone who knows me, I love to drive hard... all the time.

Fred R. C4S

FWIW

How often do you suppose that a street car is at full power? I'll bet that if you ran a histogram of engine power versus time, a street car is very seldom at max power. 500, 600, 700 hp becomes an academic exercise. Although an engine may be able to pull these numbers on an engine or chassis dyno, I seriously doubt if they often are reached on the road.

Just an opinion from engineering mining trucks with 3000+hp for 25 years. If you can't transfer the power to the ground, the engine is not acutally developing max power. It is merely producing the power level at which traction is lost.

Cheers,

Sun Ra

fozzy,
i agree with you on the "gt2 is EVIL" BS, which guys you know we've talked about before. that gt purely porsche article, which Chad so graciously sent me, is absolute B-LLSH_T.

Gt2 rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrocks, it fun and light and responsive off the shelf. it needs NO, thats NO mod.s to perform, you can tailor the suspension which is adjustable like gt3's to your own preferences as i have started to do.

but the factory set up [not obviously on the gt article car] actually works well except at very high speeds when more toe and bar are helpful.

Chad is so right that it's easy to mod a gt2 too much and actually degrade its wonderful delivery in use. i have analyzed mod.s and under use at the margin, pounding the car, the only time you can use more power is redline accelerations in 3,4,5 to very high speeds. i only do this 3500 miles per year, and i'm not sure i gain enough to spend the 20k with Ruf.... and then when i sell it, which could be next week if another gt2 i like comes along... i lose it.

Jack is putting fikses on his gt2. i got the actual weights from my stock gt2 wheels yesterday: 28# front, 33# rear, even more than i thought. this means fikse save 36# unsprung!!!!!! and when/if Cups are available, which are supposedly lighter than pilots, more can be saved. this is a reasonable "mod" i think.

TT's need to be mod'd to be anywhere near as fun in the dry, altho' i would find a stock TT more fun than gt2 in the snow and the 1-3" deep mud i used to drive my 993TT in in AZ. but i havent driven my gt2 in the mud, so i am ASSUMING this is the case.

please be careful to note untested claims about cars to actual experience... most of the BS on gt2 is just rumours and hype that pass along creating the LEGENDE amongst non-users.

the car rocks. it's harder to drive fast that a TT, so what? if you do happen to know what you're doing, it is FOR ME, infinitely more amusing, satisfying and just MY CAR compared to TT, or 360 or anything else i can think of, short of GT which doesnt exist today.

mod'd TT's are fun too and i enjoyed driving tysons car when wilbur owned and look forward to driving again. but you can't sell it, it's illiquid [and i rarely keep a car 6 months] and who knows what happens in the middle of Death Valley. When i go through the Valley of Death, i go stock gt2 and i'm reasonably sure i will emerge from the other side, not on a tow truck. i can hammer the gt2 up the mountain out of Death at redline accelerations with the AC blasting on a 120 degree day and the temp goes from 182 to 190.

Deanger

Amen brother Watt!

Fozzy

Fair enough, and I've never driven a TT with that degree of power, so my POV is subjective. Revised suspension + tyres, that I get. Anything to help us mere mortals keep this degree of power on the tarmac. Chipping / tuning to a certain degree I also get - greater torque band is always useful. I'm just a bit sceptical about the true value of squeezing a few more bhp out of an already very highly tuned engine, particularly if it's, say, 600 to 700. (Much as I fail to see any real value in the 2004 GT2 model BHP increase other than as part of a marketing package).

There again I'm of the school that believes that all of this is wholly dependent on the person behind the wheel as well as the machinery, unless all you're concerned about is driving in a straight line. Some of the long strings on the board quoting performance data where there is any variance in conditions or car setup or equipment, however minimal, almost always says more about the relevant driver than the car (Having been humbled by my brother's friend, a TOCA driver, who kept up with me cross-country in a Ford LWB van while I was in my girlfriends Boxster) To go back to the original discussion, the GT2 isn't suited to everyone, and Eldiablo Viper may hate the way it drives. It's definitely one of those gut decisions you have to make.

FWIW, seen the posts about the proposed test run involving some of the more powerful Rennlist cars, and think that, if comparables matter, that's the only way to do it - same driver, track & conditions. But each to their own - I'm comfortable that the GT2 and my ego are fairly well matched without mods!

Fozzy

LOL. Pure Old Testament. Just picturing Moses, er, Watt, and his exodus though the Valley of Death at 160mph, long grey beard and cloak flowing out of the car window.

Sun Ra

life is so much fun!!!!!!!!!

actually fozzy -- with Cuban cigar in hand.

but truly i believe the gt2 is "another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory", or is it manna from heaven on lost drivers souls seeking the land of milk and honey?

fozzy, you need to hook up with my esteemed gt2 friend GuyR over there. Guy are you out there? [he has gotten tickets in Death Valley, tho' he fears no evil USA policeman... another story].

and fozzy, put us some photos of your rig!!!

Hamann7

Fred R. C4S-- I dunno how often street cars are put to full use but I can honestly say that I run the car at full boost more than a few times a day. Not the least when I run the canyons, which is on a daily basis. To me driving a Porsche like this is pointless unless you put it to good use.

Fozzy, believe it or not, when my car was being designed and built by Wilber, it didn't really have a HP target in mind. Basically, his design parameter focused on efficiency, namely optimizing the turbo plumbing for better flow, creating a lightweight, free flowing exhaust system, and using more efficient Turbos that spool fast, as well as external wastegate and special intercoolers. If you look at the way my car is setup, the plumbing is vastly simplified over stock, so the Porsche mechanics love to work on it. It just so happens that this design theory yields a lot of power....

Hey Watt, who cares about the car being illiquid? There is always a buyer for this kind of thing, albeit it is a smaller market. However, do you know how much MORE money I'd have to spend to get anything nearly as fast?

Speaking of which I think it's ciggarro time this weekend...

LSM

You CA guys are so lucky!! I was just talking to a friend about how all you guys drive in the canyons and are able to fully utilize your cars. I honestly, 500hp or not, 95% of the time am in traffic driving in the city. I am glad at least some of us can truly enjoy the experience.

-Lou

Sun Ra

yes, but our government and populace is truly f.d up so everywhere has its pro's and con's. besidez lou, i've smoked thru rural illinois on 2 lane. it's out there.

and you can pound a car 0-120 near/in any big city including Chicacaccatorigo. not like there's no twaffic in LA, mon. one of my favourite corners on the way to work is drifting the left from Olympic BLvd onto Bundy and hammering it! Tyson and Roland know it... it's in the city.

racer63

I don't understand this reasoning at all. Balanced performance is a function of acceleration, turning and braking. No single element is any more important than another.

I also think that you overstate your case with regard to HP mods (being mostly for ego). It is probably true that many people want the highest horsepower figure for bragging rights, yet have no idea how to utilize it. Nor do they know whether it is really the best power curve for the way in which they drive their car (track vs street vs autox, etc.). But, for balanced performance, an improved torque curve is still a good thing...

On the other hand, you seem to be saying that upgrading suspension bits is the holy grail. Yet, in my experience, most of the rice rockets and euro racer wannabes make suspension mods for no reason other than that they look cool. More often than not, they are poorly constructed hack jobs (say, cut springs, just to lower the car). And while, when the guy has a little more money to spend, good systems are generally used, most guys rarely have any idea how to actually tune it. Moreover, 99% of all drivers do not actually have the driving ability to make use of even a properly designed and tuned suspension system. I would be willing to bet that if you took your average performance enthusiast and had him make back to back runs in a stock TT and a TT with say PSS9s, there would be almost no measurable difference in performance because they don't actually know how to drive the car at the limit in the first place. So, while a good suspension set up is necessary for balanced performance, it is by no means the holy grail.

My $0.02 when it comes to mods. If you are an experienced high performance driver, leave it stock (since you can outrun most anyone even in the stock car) or upgrade the entire car (for balanced performance). On the other hand, if you are not an experienced racer, buy the improved suspension or engine or brakes (or whatever hits your fancy) if it improves the driving experience for you. And, if you want to become a more competent high performance driver, allocate some of your mod money to performance driving schools and track time. But, regardless of your situation, I don't think it makes any sense to say "XYZ mods are good" but "ABC mods are bad".

Yours in speed,

PogueMoHone

racer63,

I wish I had said that....it just about sums up the whole issue.

LSM

I know traffic has to be terrible in LA as well. I drive about 1 miles down the street to commute to work. I live and work in the City. I did get a kick out of you saying "on the way to work is drifting the left from Olympic BLvd onto Bundy and hammering it! " Again, I do not really have a commute to work, but, I was on the highway this moring attending a meeting in the suburbs and the only thing you can hammer on chicago highways is your head from the traffic. Hammering my car in Chicago traffic is like exceeding 15mph. It took me 1hr 40 minutes to drive 25 miles. I think I exceeded 30mph once

-Lou