Any Track or Club Banned Street GT3's?...
12-02-2013, 02:49 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
12-02-2013, 08:23 PM
#18
One problem I've seen is that a lot of new drivers DON'T know about this. Seriously, unless your on this board, or hang out with a bunch of gt3 track junkies, you'd probably never know. I honestly had no idea until I read a thread on here....haven't gotten it done, but our car has not see the track since we bought it.
Met 2 new gt3 owners at a DEs this year who had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned this....
Met 2 new gt3 owners at a DEs this year who had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned this....
I wouldn't advocate that it be mandatory that the fittings be welded for lower run groups. For folks new to DE that may be too much to ask. But for someone running 10 events or more a year maybe it should be mandatory. Could run into some legal concerns here. But if the issue is known I would think more folks would address the problem than not.
Just my .02
12-02-2013, 08:43 PM
#19
Nordschleife Master
In case your comment was for me I will respond: No one said it was the solution, but if you are not ready or willing to spend a couple thousand to weld, pin, etc, Water Wetter will carry you nicely until you are ready for a permanent fix.
Each is entitled to his/her opinion, but for me, I'll take my chances driving through WW any day v. coolant.
Each is entitled to his/her opinion, but for me, I'll take my chances driving through WW any day v. coolant.
12-03-2013, 01:12 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Driving though Water only, Water Wetter and Water, or coolant is a difference of degrees. I have seen plenty of cars that went into barriers on a Wet track from the rain when the drivers were "practicing the wet line". Please don't subscribe to a theory of water is better than coolant. That is kind of like saying coolant is more slippery than oil or vice versa. No one wants to be behind the 930 that blows an oil line to a turbo or oil cooler, and no one wants to be in the coolant goo either.
12-03-2013, 01:45 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Driving though Water only, Water Wetter and Water, or coolant is a difference of degrees. I have seen plenty of cars that went into barriers on a Wet track from the rain when the drivers were "practicing the wet line". Please don't subscribe to a theory of water is better than coolant. That is kind of like saying coolant is more slippery than oil or vice versa. No one wants to be behind the 930 that blows an oil line to a turbo or oil cooler, and no one wants to be in the coolant goo either.
12-03-2013, 04:38 PM
#23
Thank you LVDell. If you track alot and know about the issue and you don't correct it - shame on you. Glad you are not on track with me FFaust. This is my biggest concern. Knowing and not fixing if you are a track guy. No excuse. Cheaper than any kind of contact or causing an incident.
12-03-2013, 05:16 PM
#24
Nordschleife Master
Not sure what you are talking about, but since you are getting personal, I might as well set you straight:
Been tracking the GT3 for 3 years: First year, I did the water wetter until I was ready to do the fix; second year I dropped the motor and pinned the fittings. I also replace the two big hoses yearly as a precautionary measure.
During my water wetter year, I blew a fitting at Tremblant and was thanked by the CI for being considerate and running WW.
Now, if you just don't want to be on the track with me for whatever other reason, it's you right, but I've had no complaint.
I don't know why you and Dell are against WW. Some PCA regions, including mine, require "it" or pinning/welding. Motorcycle racing organizations require it since a bike's cooling lines are exposed and prone to be damaged in a crash.
Are you saying that straight water + a few ounces of wetter is as slippery as a tankful of glycol-based coolant? Really?
It's been said elsewhere that the 'only' benefit to water + WW is that it makes cleanup easier: That tells me that coolant clings to the track surface and remains slippery longer.
I've driven through someone's coolant a few laps after a dump, and it's still pretty slick. Water, not so much.
Yes, any liquid will be slippery at the 'moment of dump', but unless you are tightly packed, you stand a better chance of driving through water unharmed v. coolant, especially on a hot day, when water will evaporate quickly, and maybe not even "reach the pavement" as we've been told.
Water wetter is not the final solution, but for those who can't do the fix just yet, it is a safer alternative than doing nothing.
Been tracking the GT3 for 3 years: First year, I did the water wetter until I was ready to do the fix; second year I dropped the motor and pinned the fittings. I also replace the two big hoses yearly as a precautionary measure.
During my water wetter year, I blew a fitting at Tremblant and was thanked by the CI for being considerate and running WW.
Now, if you just don't want to be on the track with me for whatever other reason, it's you right, but I've had no complaint.
I don't know why you and Dell are against WW. Some PCA regions, including mine, require "it" or pinning/welding. Motorcycle racing organizations require it since a bike's cooling lines are exposed and prone to be damaged in a crash.
Are you saying that straight water + a few ounces of wetter is as slippery as a tankful of glycol-based coolant? Really?
It's been said elsewhere that the 'only' benefit to water + WW is that it makes cleanup easier: That tells me that coolant clings to the track surface and remains slippery longer.
I've driven through someone's coolant a few laps after a dump, and it's still pretty slick. Water, not so much.
Yes, any liquid will be slippery at the 'moment of dump', but unless you are tightly packed, you stand a better chance of driving through water unharmed v. coolant, especially on a hot day, when water will evaporate quickly, and maybe not even "reach the pavement" as we've been told.
Water wetter is not the final solution, but for those who can't do the fix just yet, it is a safer alternative than doing nothing.
12-03-2013, 05:33 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Thank you LVDell. If you track alot and know about the issue and you don't correct it - shame on you. Glad you are not on track with me FFaust. This is my biggest concern. Knowing and not fixing if you are a track guy. No excuse. Cheaper than any kind of contact or causing an incident.
By the way, my comment is not about the issue, but rather the fluid that is used to cool the car. Ease up.
Last edited by LVDell; 12-03-2013 at 06:38 PM.
12-04-2013, 09:12 AM
#26
Francoa I'm sorry I directed anger at you. I should realize some people just don't get it. I look at it as a safety issue like a Pre track inspection. If you get that. If you can go on track with a clear mind knowing they are not fixed what can I say. Over the winter I'm confident there will be alot of discussion from the different Regions as to how to address the issue. I can tell you that the National PCA Safety Chairperson had them welded.
12-04-2013, 11:05 AM
#27
Nordschleife Master
^ Thanks.
I'm with you on this, in fact we are ALL in this together, but it's a tough one.
Porsche has never admitted to anything. In fact, if you ask some of the techs they will gladly tell you that this is a very, very rare occurrence, and that there's no reason to do anything about it, yet I've personally seen it first hand at least 5 or 6 times (if not more), so:
A) There is not one official fix, endorsed by the OEM
B) Leaving cost out of it, whatever fix we choose is fairly invasive, and therefore not an appealing proposition for the owner of a newer car, not to mention the risk of warranty loss depending on the dealership (does not seem to be an issue in Canada, neither is tracking)
C) Information and statistics are vague at best (who is more at risk? Is there a mileage, age correlation? Is there one fitting that fails more frequently [i.e. pwr steering pump bracket] that could be replaced and that would reduce odds of failure by a significant factor?
D) Can you realistically expect someone who only tracks occasionally, in a newer car, to drop the engine to do the fix?
E) Because of the denial, many owners do not even believe that the problem exists
To John's (JRG) original question: Our region, UCR, took a hard line on this last year, requiring a fix, or at least WW, on all Mezger-engined cars. During the first DE of the year, a 997.1 TT blew a fitting, and although no accidents ensued, the track was shut down for an hour for cleanup.
When we looked at the participant's tech form, all boxes were ticked, except for the one addressing this issue??? It was a last minute borrowed car.
I think that some cars were turned away later in the year, or maybe given a one event pass and warning.
Yes, this is a very serious issue, but not one with an easy solution that will please everyone. If Porsche was to admit, and propose a solution, we would not be having these discussions. Heck, I'm sure that most would be happy to pay for a solution put forth by the OEM. I know I would have been.
I'm with you on this, in fact we are ALL in this together, but it's a tough one.
Porsche has never admitted to anything. In fact, if you ask some of the techs they will gladly tell you that this is a very, very rare occurrence, and that there's no reason to do anything about it, yet I've personally seen it first hand at least 5 or 6 times (if not more), so:
A) There is not one official fix, endorsed by the OEM
B) Leaving cost out of it, whatever fix we choose is fairly invasive, and therefore not an appealing proposition for the owner of a newer car, not to mention the risk of warranty loss depending on the dealership (does not seem to be an issue in Canada, neither is tracking)
C) Information and statistics are vague at best (who is more at risk? Is there a mileage, age correlation? Is there one fitting that fails more frequently [i.e. pwr steering pump bracket] that could be replaced and that would reduce odds of failure by a significant factor?
D) Can you realistically expect someone who only tracks occasionally, in a newer car, to drop the engine to do the fix?
E) Because of the denial, many owners do not even believe that the problem exists
To John's (JRG) original question: Our region, UCR, took a hard line on this last year, requiring a fix, or at least WW, on all Mezger-engined cars. During the first DE of the year, a 997.1 TT blew a fitting, and although no accidents ensued, the track was shut down for an hour for cleanup.
When we looked at the participant's tech form, all boxes were ticked, except for the one addressing this issue??? It was a last minute borrowed car.
I think that some cars were turned away later in the year, or maybe given a one event pass and warning.
Yes, this is a very serious issue, but not one with an easy solution that will please everyone. If Porsche was to admit, and propose a solution, we would not be having these discussions. Heck, I'm sure that most would be happy to pay for a solution put forth by the OEM. I know I would have been.
12-04-2013, 11:07 AM
#28
Nordschleife Master
Regions need to formulate a policy which addresses this issue and update tech forms so that everyone is aware.
I wouldn't advocate that it be mandatory that the fittings be welded for lower run groups. For folks new to DE that may be too much to ask. But for someone running 10 events or more a year maybe it should be mandatory. Could run into some legal concerns here. But if the issue is known I would think more folks would address the problem than not.
Just my .02
I wouldn't advocate that it be mandatory that the fittings be welded for lower run groups. For folks new to DE that may be too much to ask. But for someone running 10 events or more a year maybe it should be mandatory. Could run into some legal concerns here. But if the issue is known I would think more folks would address the problem than not.
Just my .02
12-04-2013, 04:00 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Maybe we could call VHT and see if they can make a coolant that increases traction when it hits the track!
Thinking outside the box.
Welded my fittings before my first event.
Thinking outside the box.
Welded my fittings before my first event.
12-04-2013, 07:25 PM
#30
I am pleased that Stephen from NHTSA has taken it this far. Great that a Federal worker cares. This is not over yet. Porsche knew of adhesive problems. there ARE internal documents. They pretend still that there is no issue. Too few car to rock the world. Let's protect our co drivers on the track.