Rebuild of rotors (done)- WITH PICS NOW!!
08-02-2011, 05:16 PM
#62
Bringing this back from the dead - can folks post up some pictures or links to different tools I should get. I was going to have a shop do this, but now considering doing it myself since I have almost two months to my next event after this weekend.
Also, checked websites for pelican and zeckhausen - neither had a kit on their website. Did you guys call or just order individual parts?
Also, checked websites for pelican and zeckhausen - neither had a kit on their website. Did you guys call or just order individual parts?
08-02-2011, 05:23 PM
#64
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A bit off topic but..... Anyone here going to Mid-Ohio this wknd for ALMS, IndyCar & World Challenge?? If ya are, look me up. txt/call 303.898.9498 I'll be there Thur - Sat
Michael
Michael
08-02-2011, 05:34 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
Shameless promotion:
TraqJunk has 2 tools which help in working on brakes:
and our Wheel Mounting Pin holds the wheel in correct orientation when you're removing or replacing it. $14.94
Information and secure online ordering at TraqJunk.com
TraqJunk has 2 tools which help in working on brakes:
and our Wheel Mounting Pin holds the wheel in correct orientation when you're removing or replacing it. $14.94
Information and secure online ordering at TraqJunk.com
08-02-2011, 05:38 PM
#66
Three Wheelin'
all good choices for tools... Don't forget to get the plastic wrench that pulls the pistons out! Much safer then placing a block of wood in there an blasting them with air.
08-02-2011, 06:55 PM
#67
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Yes. I've never bled the brakes because they got soft, just because I feel like its a best practice before every other event; maybe 1/4 of a quart, if that. I'm already swapping to track pads, so its not much more of an effort.
Many guys just bleed once a season. Some in the 7-3 have recently switched from Motul 600 to SRF with positive feedback. Give it a try.
Many guys just bleed once a season. Some in the 7-3 have recently switched from Motul 600 to SRF with positive feedback. Give it a try.
08-02-2011, 07:05 PM
#68
Shameless promotion:
TraqJunk has 2 tools which help in working on brakes:
and our Wheel Mounting Pin holds the wheel in correct orientation when you're removing or replacing it. $14.94
Information and secure online ordering at TraqJunk.com
TraqJunk has 2 tools which help in working on brakes:
and our Wheel Mounting Pin holds the wheel in correct orientation when you're removing or replacing it. $14.94
Information and secure online ordering at TraqJunk.com
10-24-2011, 07:01 PM
#69
So what actually holds the ceramic buttons in, the rubber dust ring?
Now that my rubber dust caps or rings are shot the ceramic pads tend to fall out on pad changes.
Am I correct in assuming with the caliper off and the dust cap and ceramic ring off you can then see into the piston area and replace the o-ring seal there.
Next, assuming that all looks ok and goes well, you put on the dust cap, push in the ceramic button and you are done.
Sounds easy. Do I have it right?
Now that my rubber dust caps or rings are shot the ceramic pads tend to fall out on pad changes.
Am I correct in assuming with the caliper off and the dust cap and ceramic ring off you can then see into the piston area and replace the o-ring seal there.
Next, assuming that all looks ok and goes well, you put on the dust cap, push in the ceramic button and you are done.
Sounds easy. Do I have it right?
Thanks!
10-25-2011, 09:13 PM
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See post number #37 where I have the pictures. Scroll down until you see the one where I am holding the ceramic disc and piston together in one hand.
As you can see the face of the ceramic disc is molded to "fit" into the top of the piston. They can fairly easily be popped apart but will stay together if pressed together.
In my opinion the dust seal (not "O" ring, that is inside the piston bore) does play a big role in holding the ceramic disc in place when you pull the pads out.
My emphasis was to spread the word that this dust seal gets pretty ugly after a while. It is protecting the piston etc. and is important to replace periodically.
If you pull the caliper off completely and do nothing but replace these piston seals I would say you are doing the easiest part of a rebuild and the most important one too.
The seals are easy to pull off the caliper and easy to replace. If the ceramic disc is in the way just pop it loose and pull it out. After you put new seals in you can just seat or mate the ceramic disc again to the piston. Brake pedal force will more fully seat it anyways and it isn't going anywhere.
The seal will hold it on top of the piston and once the pads go back in the pads are in the way of it coming out.
If you know how to take your calipers off you can do this easy. If you don't do it you are inviting debris and such into the piston environment.
As you can see the face of the ceramic disc is molded to "fit" into the top of the piston. They can fairly easily be popped apart but will stay together if pressed together.
In my opinion the dust seal (not "O" ring, that is inside the piston bore) does play a big role in holding the ceramic disc in place when you pull the pads out.
My emphasis was to spread the word that this dust seal gets pretty ugly after a while. It is protecting the piston etc. and is important to replace periodically.
If you pull the caliper off completely and do nothing but replace these piston seals I would say you are doing the easiest part of a rebuild and the most important one too.
The seals are easy to pull off the caliper and easy to replace. If the ceramic disc is in the way just pop it loose and pull it out. After you put new seals in you can just seat or mate the ceramic disc again to the piston. Brake pedal force will more fully seat it anyways and it isn't going anywhere.
The seal will hold it on top of the piston and once the pads go back in the pads are in the way of it coming out.
If you know how to take your calipers off you can do this easy. If you don't do it you are inviting debris and such into the piston environment.
10-25-2011, 09:24 PM
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While this thread has been brought back I might add one more thing. No pics, sorry.
There have been tons of threads on here about brake caliper bleeder valves leaking an unsightly trail of fluid down the caliper after a bleed and track day.
The discussions ran from the valve not closed, threads bad etc etc.
While at the Moroso facility a while back Rick Moroso gave me a tip.
He uses a standard pipe cleaner and slowly dips it into the bleeder valve AFTER the bleed is complete. The bleeder valve is pretty long even though we only see the top part that we open/close and the put the rubber cap back on.
It is this valve that has the fluid trapped in it that expands out as the brakes get warm on track.
Bleed your brakes and close the valve as per normal. Grab a pipe cleaner and slide it into the valve to soak up all the fluid. Put the cap back on and your drooling caliper valve days are over.
Thanks Rick, nice tip.
http://www.competitionengineering.com/
There have been tons of threads on here about brake caliper bleeder valves leaking an unsightly trail of fluid down the caliper after a bleed and track day.
The discussions ran from the valve not closed, threads bad etc etc.
While at the Moroso facility a while back Rick Moroso gave me a tip.
He uses a standard pipe cleaner and slowly dips it into the bleeder valve AFTER the bleed is complete. The bleeder valve is pretty long even though we only see the top part that we open/close and the put the rubber cap back on.
It is this valve that has the fluid trapped in it that expands out as the brakes get warm on track.
Bleed your brakes and close the valve as per normal. Grab a pipe cleaner and slide it into the valve to soak up all the fluid. Put the cap back on and your drooling caliper valve days are over.
Thanks Rick, nice tip.
http://www.competitionengineering.com/
10-25-2011, 11:28 PM
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The dust boot, while it may appear to play a role in keeping the ceramic button in the piston should not be counted on to do so. The piston button is pressure fit into the top of the piston. (and it's not a great or reliable design) I know Porsche Motorsports issued a TSB like bulletin to race teams using the 6 piston caliper of a design "upgrade" which did away with the ceramic button design. I would suggest that if the dust boot is what is essentially keeping your ceramic button in place it's time for new pistons or to send the calipers to PMNA for the "upgrade" (but I think I heard the upgrade was about $2200. Ouch!!)
The material of both the dust boot and the (pressure) seals (not the same material btw) is rated for approximately 400 F (398 F to be exact) If your caliper body temps are registering 350 F you are cooking the seals/dust boots and the caliper should be rebuilt. If you are running the hard i.e. DE's or Club Racing, I would recommend getting some of the caliper temperature strips that apply to the body of the caliper and monitoring your peak caliper temps. Overheating the seals will make them hard (change the durameter) and they will lose their elasticity. This will manifest itself by the pistons not retracting back after application as they should resulting in the potential for the pad to remain in at least light contact with the disc. This increases system temperature and could result in boiling brake fluid, overheating the pad, etc.
HTH.
Michael
The material of both the dust boot and the (pressure) seals (not the same material btw) is rated for approximately 400 F (398 F to be exact) If your caliper body temps are registering 350 F you are cooking the seals/dust boots and the caliper should be rebuilt. If you are running the hard i.e. DE's or Club Racing, I would recommend getting some of the caliper temperature strips that apply to the body of the caliper and monitoring your peak caliper temps. Overheating the seals will make them hard (change the durameter) and they will lose their elasticity. This will manifest itself by the pistons not retracting back after application as they should resulting in the potential for the pad to remain in at least light contact with the disc. This increases system temperature and could result in boiling brake fluid, overheating the pad, etc.
HTH.
Michael
10-26-2011, 01:14 AM
#73
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I am now running with Thermax #5 temp strips in two places on the calipers. The range of these strips is 270-320F.
I do not even register 270F. Seriously. Rotors get hot but calipers, not where I can measure them.
Of course, where I have them placed, and you can see the places I've used in thread #59, I think it is safe to say it is possibly not the hottest section of the caliper. I put them where they could be read easily through the wheel spokes and a second one on the top of the caliper, that one the wheel has to come off to see.
Neither even reads 270F and I have run hot days, etc etc.
I was curious what my caliper temps were to better pick a brake fluid. I was not able to prove they get anywhere near the limit of the seals and perhaps no where near even the middle of the road brake fluids.
I have not seen anyone show evidence otherwise.
It is entirely likely the calipers and pads get pretty hot, I just can't find a way to measure them and don't see anyone else doing so.
My take is the brakes are pretty bullet proof. Do the dust seals for sure and the piston seals less frequently. Worked for me.
If I was racing things would be different....depending on my sponsor money :-)
I think that our system allows air into the lines or master cylinder personally. I doubt we are really "boiling" fluid. For me, Motul 600F is fine. The one possible issue I believe may exist is different brake fluids seem to provide different brake pedal "feel". Motul 600 needs to be bled evey maybe 6 days for me to hold a firm pedal feel.
Like I said, I have tried hard to determine this factually, but I do not think the fact I have to bleed every so often is because I am boiling the fluid. If my calipers can't even get to 270F in two locations, can they really be above 600F in another??
They for sure get hot enough that after four seasons the dust seals were shot. My take is that this is cumulative and that undoubtably we must have local temps SOMEWHERE on the caliper maybe into the 300F's. Anyways, cracked seals won't happen again. They are too easy to replace.
I do not even register 270F. Seriously. Rotors get hot but calipers, not where I can measure them.
Of course, where I have them placed, and you can see the places I've used in thread #59, I think it is safe to say it is possibly not the hottest section of the caliper. I put them where they could be read easily through the wheel spokes and a second one on the top of the caliper, that one the wheel has to come off to see.
Neither even reads 270F and I have run hot days, etc etc.
I was curious what my caliper temps were to better pick a brake fluid. I was not able to prove they get anywhere near the limit of the seals and perhaps no where near even the middle of the road brake fluids.
I have not seen anyone show evidence otherwise.
It is entirely likely the calipers and pads get pretty hot, I just can't find a way to measure them and don't see anyone else doing so.
My take is the brakes are pretty bullet proof. Do the dust seals for sure and the piston seals less frequently. Worked for me.
If I was racing things would be different....depending on my sponsor money :-)
I think that our system allows air into the lines or master cylinder personally. I doubt we are really "boiling" fluid. For me, Motul 600F is fine. The one possible issue I believe may exist is different brake fluids seem to provide different brake pedal "feel". Motul 600 needs to be bled evey maybe 6 days for me to hold a firm pedal feel.
Like I said, I have tried hard to determine this factually, but I do not think the fact I have to bleed every so often is because I am boiling the fluid. If my calipers can't even get to 270F in two locations, can they really be above 600F in another??
They for sure get hot enough that after four seasons the dust seals were shot. My take is that this is cumulative and that undoubtably we must have local temps SOMEWHERE on the caliper maybe into the 300F's. Anyways, cracked seals won't happen again. They are too easy to replace.
10-26-2011, 09:29 AM
#74
Dennis & Michael - Thanks for your help!
Can't see $2000+ Motorsports rebuild in my future just to keep the buttons in... They may originally have been a press fit, but mine certainly aren't after 54 track days since last Sept. The buttons just fall out as soon as I remove the pads for a change. Quite a challenge to hold them in place while inserting a new pad - I use a wide spackling blade to hold them while slipping pad in. Definitely time to consider new dust seals / rebuild. Brakes still work great but it a takes a lot of time and dexterity to get the buttons back in and hold them while slipping the new pads in.
Dennis, copied your pictures below. If I understand correctly, in left picture you are holding a piston with the button in place and with a dust seal still attached. In the 2nd picture the dust seals are not in place and would fit around the button in the area between the flared button top that contacts the pad and the piston. If that is correct, I would think new dust seals would help keep buttons in place once they no longer press fit (like mine).
I will also talk to dealer and local shops but am also considering a dab of Loctite RTV Red sealant on sides of buttons to keep them from falling out - sealant is rated 600 degrees.
Can't see $2000+ Motorsports rebuild in my future just to keep the buttons in... They may originally have been a press fit, but mine certainly aren't after 54 track days since last Sept. The buttons just fall out as soon as I remove the pads for a change. Quite a challenge to hold them in place while inserting a new pad - I use a wide spackling blade to hold them while slipping pad in. Definitely time to consider new dust seals / rebuild. Brakes still work great but it a takes a lot of time and dexterity to get the buttons back in and hold them while slipping the new pads in.
Dennis, copied your pictures below. If I understand correctly, in left picture you are holding a piston with the button in place and with a dust seal still attached. In the 2nd picture the dust seals are not in place and would fit around the button in the area between the flared button top that contacts the pad and the piston. If that is correct, I would think new dust seals would help keep buttons in place once they no longer press fit (like mine).
I will also talk to dealer and local shops but am also considering a dab of Loctite RTV Red sealant on sides of buttons to keep them from falling out - sealant is rated 600 degrees.
Last edited by obsessedone; 10-26-2011 at 09:53 AM.
10-26-2011, 12:38 PM
#75
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Regardless of the temps you are or are not seeing with these stickers, the dust boots will crack with age and heat cycles. Mine are just starting to crack, and my car has been mostly a garage queen, with some DEs since I picked it up; BTW, SRF since day one. I'll be having my dust boots replaced over the winter.