2nd gear popout issue class action suit
07-18-2009, 04:14 AM
#31
No need to take it to PM as I have no reason to continue this. My point was simple....you chose to assume my assumption was a myopic take on this issue and chose sarcasm to belittle and make yourself look more knowledgeable without any facts. As a scientist myself I don't accept a point without empirical support. My knowledge base of these cars is NOT just limited to a few cars.
What's you stake in this suit anyway? I find it amazing that there even exists a suit for something that is clearly not a defect but rather user abuse.
What's you stake in this suit anyway? I find it amazing that there even exists a suit for something that is clearly not a defect but rather user abuse.
07-18-2009, 11:57 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
Point on GT3 tranny. I arguably had more 1/2 shifts than anybody with a 996 GT3. NJGT was probably close. The car was AutoX for 3 years and probably more than 2000+ runs. We tore the tranny down before the 2008 One Lap at app 18,000 miles and the 2nd gear synchro was perfect. In fact the whole tranny was fine with minimal wear.
Peter
Peter
07-18-2009, 12:40 PM
#33
Cruisin'
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Dave and Chuck ... I'm wasn't ignoring you, but I normally just scan (and participate minimally) on various forums over my morning coffee. I'd be happy to share a bit more input ... but I'm off for the weekend (and I'm still washing a bitter taste from my mouth).
I ALMOST devoted a post last night NOT to transmission stuff, but rather to internet courtesy and mean-spirited people ... but I realized that off-topic blather on that subject would go right over the heads of the few who need to read it, anyhow.
Thanks to a number of you who made a new-comer feel welcome. As much as it may have appeared otherwise, I hate that s**t.
I ALMOST devoted a post last night NOT to transmission stuff, but rather to internet courtesy and mean-spirited people ... but I realized that off-topic blather on that subject would go right over the heads of the few who need to read it, anyhow.
Thanks to a number of you who made a new-comer feel welcome. As much as it may have appeared otherwise, I hate that s**t.
07-18-2009, 03:29 PM
#34
Dave and Chuck ... I'm wasn't ignoring you, but I normally just scan (and participate minimally) on various forums over my morning coffee. I'd be happy to share a bit more input ... but I'm off for the weekend (and I'm still washing a bitter taste from my mouth).
I ALMOST devoted a post last night NOT to transmission stuff, but rather to internet courtesy and mean-spirited people ... but I realized that off-topic blather on that subject would go right over the heads of the few who need to read it, anyhow.
Thanks to a number of you who made a new-comer feel welcome. As much as it may have appeared otherwise, I hate that s**t.
I ALMOST devoted a post last night NOT to transmission stuff, but rather to internet courtesy and mean-spirited people ... but I realized that off-topic blather on that subject would go right over the heads of the few who need to read it, anyhow.
Thanks to a number of you who made a new-comer feel welcome. As much as it may have appeared otherwise, I hate that s**t.
In my opinion your posts are thoughtful and welcome to those of us who own and are considering owning one of these cars. I'm generally not one to post negative thoughts, but in watching Dell operate over the years on rennlist, it's clear that he does a real disservice to those of us who want to learn more about Porsches (even if it's negative stuff).
Cheers,
Joe
07-18-2009, 07:43 PM
#35
Nordschleife Master
I ALMOST devoted a post last night NOT to transmission stuff, but rather to internet courtesy and mean-spirited people ... but I realized that off-topic blather on that subject would go right over the heads of the few who need to read it, anyhow.
Thanks to a number of you who made a new-comer feel welcome. As much as it may have appeared otherwise, I hate that s**t.
Thanks to a number of you who made a new-comer feel welcome. As much as it may have appeared otherwise, I hate that s**t.
With that said, had a crappy *** day yesterday and didn't know you from Adam (and likewise) yet you pushed a button. Had you approached it differently this would have never gone down the path it did.
Regardless, you clearly know your stuff and independent of what has happened over the course of the thread, I consider it water under the bridge and don't harbor any of it. trust me, my skin is thick.
Anyway, you have my apologies and I wish you welcome here. Not asking for you to accept that apology but try to understand where I was coming from and that I honestly feel bad that it has detracted from the thread at hand.
Kailua,
In my opinion your posts are thoughtful and welcome to those of us who own and are considering owning one of these cars. I'm generally not one to post negative thoughts, but in watching Dell operate over the years on rennlist, it's clear that he does a real disservice to those of us who want to learn more about Porsches (even if it's negative stuff).
Cheers,
Joe
In my opinion your posts are thoughtful and welcome to those of us who own and are considering owning one of these cars. I'm generally not one to post negative thoughts, but in watching Dell operate over the years on rennlist, it's clear that he does a real disservice to those of us who want to learn more about Porsches (even if it's negative stuff).
Cheers,
Joe
08-14-2009, 06:42 AM
#36
5th Gear
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Ok - so back on topic. 2nd gear popping out in the GT2.
i HAVE has this issue repeatedly. i know of others that have. if you go to any specialist and tell them you have a gearbox problem on a GT2...they finish the sentence for you..
i have spent upwards of £5k GBP on this issue.
it ISN'T due to bad driving or bad shifts. it is a manufacturer problem. it is random. ie it happened 200 miles after i'd had the whole gear box refurbished.
i HAVE has this issue repeatedly. i know of others that have. if you go to any specialist and tell them you have a gearbox problem on a GT2...they finish the sentence for you..
i have spent upwards of £5k GBP on this issue.
it ISN'T due to bad driving or bad shifts. it is a manufacturer problem. it is random. ie it happened 200 miles after i'd had the whole gear box refurbished.
10-15-2009, 10:41 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Brass vs steel syncro issue. Worst problems seem to be on cars that are autocrossed. PCNA refused to warranty mine so I am glad to see them get sued. I had Powerhaus redo the box and put all steel syncros in. Beat the snot out of it since and it shifts perfect.
10-15-2009, 10:41 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Brass vs steel syncro issue. Worst problems seem to be on cars that are autocrossed. PCNA refused to warranty mine so I am glad to see them get sued. I had Powerhaus redo the box and put all steel syncros in. Beat the snot out of it since and it shifts perfect.
10-19-2009, 03:16 PM
#39
Intermediate
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Okay, I guess I will put my .02 cents in here as we rebuild a ton of these.
Yes, it is a problem, and yes to a certain degree it is an issue that should have been addressed at the factory, but no it not the end of the world, and no not everyone experiences this issue.
The synchro setup for 1st and 2nd gear is a three piece unit. It was designed this way because Porsche wanted the driver to be able to shift into and out of 1st and 2nd with minimal effort. It does tend to show up more in the Turbo cars, as these have more torque and due to some driver abuse, tend to be shifted quicker then the NA cars. Meaning that the gear has to slow itself faster, thereby wearing the internals out quicker.
The fix is actually rather simple and there are a couple of ways to accomplish it. In the past it was thought that the engagement of the operating sleeve was too shallow against the very minimal engagement against the dog ring. The simple fix was to mill off a bit of the operating sleeve to allow for a deeper engagement. This works to a degree, however, does not fully address the issue.
There is another area that needs to be looked at too, that being the size of the roller wheel against the 'W' which is marginally too big. This does not allow for the best engagement, and can lead to pre-mature failure of the operating sleeve.
The reality here is that the faster you shift into and out of the gear, the more work you are asking the synchronizer to do. If you continue to ask the synchro to do more work then it is used to doing you will run the operating sleeve into the dog ring before the gear has slowed down enough to allow for engagement. You 'zip' the tips of the dog ring with the operating sleeve causing damage to both the dog ring as well as to the operating sleeve. As the operating sleeve gets rounded it no longer makes for a full engagement and pop out issues tend to show up.
So what is the issue with brass over steel? Well this is a completely different issue, and does seem to show up in more aggressive environments such as tracked cars. As the gearbox takes on more heat from a race, etc. Internals, ie the synchro, swell at a rate that is different then the gear. Brass will swell at a rate different then steel. As this happens the synchronizer swells greater then the gear surfaces and does not allow the synchro to work as effectively. The solution here is to replace the brass with the more aggressive steel unit, which does swell at the same rate. The friction profile of the steel synchronizer is somewhat more aggressive, as well, allowing for the gear to slow at a greater rate.
The cost involved with this switch is pretty high, however, for a car that is going to see quite a bit of time on the track, I think that it is certainly worth the expense.
I hope that this has answered some of the questions as to how this problem actually occurs as well as to what some of the fixes are to address it. If anyone would like to discuss this in more detail, I would be happy to do so via the phone.
Happy to help,
Erik Johnson
GBox Sales Manager
(303) 440-8899 work
(303) 895-4828 cell
Yes, it is a problem, and yes to a certain degree it is an issue that should have been addressed at the factory, but no it not the end of the world, and no not everyone experiences this issue.
The synchro setup for 1st and 2nd gear is a three piece unit. It was designed this way because Porsche wanted the driver to be able to shift into and out of 1st and 2nd with minimal effort. It does tend to show up more in the Turbo cars, as these have more torque and due to some driver abuse, tend to be shifted quicker then the NA cars. Meaning that the gear has to slow itself faster, thereby wearing the internals out quicker.
The fix is actually rather simple and there are a couple of ways to accomplish it. In the past it was thought that the engagement of the operating sleeve was too shallow against the very minimal engagement against the dog ring. The simple fix was to mill off a bit of the operating sleeve to allow for a deeper engagement. This works to a degree, however, does not fully address the issue.
There is another area that needs to be looked at too, that being the size of the roller wheel against the 'W' which is marginally too big. This does not allow for the best engagement, and can lead to pre-mature failure of the operating sleeve.
The reality here is that the faster you shift into and out of the gear, the more work you are asking the synchronizer to do. If you continue to ask the synchro to do more work then it is used to doing you will run the operating sleeve into the dog ring before the gear has slowed down enough to allow for engagement. You 'zip' the tips of the dog ring with the operating sleeve causing damage to both the dog ring as well as to the operating sleeve. As the operating sleeve gets rounded it no longer makes for a full engagement and pop out issues tend to show up.
So what is the issue with brass over steel? Well this is a completely different issue, and does seem to show up in more aggressive environments such as tracked cars. As the gearbox takes on more heat from a race, etc. Internals, ie the synchro, swell at a rate that is different then the gear. Brass will swell at a rate different then steel. As this happens the synchronizer swells greater then the gear surfaces and does not allow the synchro to work as effectively. The solution here is to replace the brass with the more aggressive steel unit, which does swell at the same rate. The friction profile of the steel synchronizer is somewhat more aggressive, as well, allowing for the gear to slow at a greater rate.
The cost involved with this switch is pretty high, however, for a car that is going to see quite a bit of time on the track, I think that it is certainly worth the expense.
I hope that this has answered some of the questions as to how this problem actually occurs as well as to what some of the fixes are to address it. If anyone would like to discuss this in more detail, I would be happy to do so via the phone.
Happy to help,
Erik Johnson
GBox Sales Manager
(303) 440-8899 work
(303) 895-4828 cell
