Just wondering.... Where is the GT3 series going?
10-22-2007, 10:01 PM
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Just wondering.... Where is the GT3 series going?
It looks to me like the series is getting "cushier" and I'm not the only one. I thought the RS would take it up more than it appears to have. Not trying to start anything but I just wonder what opinions on this are out there. Is it all just for marketing and sales? What am I missing? Thanks all!
10-22-2007, 10:48 PM
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You’re not missing a thing.
This is exactly why I got a 996 GT3 Vs a 997 GT3 (which I had on order until the mandatory sunroof was confirmed).
Great cars those 997 GT3’s - at least by what I can tell in my mirrors.
This is exactly why I got a 996 GT3 Vs a 997 GT3 (which I had on order until the mandatory sunroof was confirmed).
Great cars those 997 GT3’s - at least by what I can tell in my mirrors.
10-22-2007, 11:34 PM
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Yeah, all Porsches are getting fatter and cushier - the GT3's are no worse in this way than the other models (still relatively focused compared to the rest).
Some say that the introduction of the Panamera Sedan and Coupe (ala 928) will relieve Porsche of the need to satisfy buyers of both sportscars and GT cars at the same time with the 911, so maybe the 998 version will be lighter/smaller/faster? We'll have to see...
Some say that the introduction of the Panamera Sedan and Coupe (ala 928) will relieve Porsche of the need to satisfy buyers of both sportscars and GT cars at the same time with the 911, so maybe the 998 version will be lighter/smaller/faster? We'll have to see...
10-22-2007, 11:39 PM
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DavidNR,
I’m not sure the series is getting cushier but it is significantly more electronically dense and comes with a mandatory sunroof. From a PRACTICAL [not philosophical] perspective, the sunroof was a nonissue for me. Additionally, all of the electronics except the shocks can be turned off. The traction control is a very useful feature as is the normal/sport suspension button. I only drove mine at Road Atlanta which has recently been repaved and is very smooth. Perhaps on a bumpier track I would have a different opinion.
Having said that, the 997 GT3 is phenomenally competent on the track right out of the box and comparing stock to stock the comfort on the street got instant wife approval. Perhaps I just blew my own case with the last comment. I’ll have my new-to-me ’04 996 GT3 on the track this weekend and if the weather permits will have some very good data with which to compare the two cars.
If you’ve already modified and set your ’05 up the way you like it then there likely wouldn’t be a tremendous difference. I’ve only played with the 996 GT3 on the street but it feels [extremely subjective] like the 997 is easier to drive quickly and perhaps a bit more stable. I’ll post a follow-up after the weekend.
Hank
I’m not sure the series is getting cushier but it is significantly more electronically dense and comes with a mandatory sunroof. From a PRACTICAL [not philosophical] perspective, the sunroof was a nonissue for me. Additionally, all of the electronics except the shocks can be turned off. The traction control is a very useful feature as is the normal/sport suspension button. I only drove mine at Road Atlanta which has recently been repaved and is very smooth. Perhaps on a bumpier track I would have a different opinion.
Having said that, the 997 GT3 is phenomenally competent on the track right out of the box and comparing stock to stock the comfort on the street got instant wife approval. Perhaps I just blew my own case with the last comment. I’ll have my new-to-me ’04 996 GT3 on the track this weekend and if the weather permits will have some very good data with which to compare the two cars.
If you’ve already modified and set your ’05 up the way you like it then there likely wouldn’t be a tremendous difference. I’ve only played with the 996 GT3 on the street but it feels [extremely subjective] like the 997 is easier to drive quickly and perhaps a bit more stable. I’ll post a follow-up after the weekend.
Hank
10-22-2007, 11:49 PM
#5
DavidNR,
I’m not sure the series is getting cushier but it is significantly more electronically dense and comes with a mandatory sunroof. From a PRACTICAL [not philosophical] perspective, the sunroof was a nonissue for me. Additionally, all of the electronics except the shocks can be turned off. The traction control is a very useful feature as is the normal/sport suspension button. I only drove mine at Road Atlanta which has recently been repaved and is very smooth. Perhaps on a bumpier track I would have a different opinion.
Having said that, the 997 GT3 is phenomenally competent on the track right out of the box and comparing stock to stock the comfort on the street got instant wife approval. Perhaps I just blew my own case with the last comment. I’ll have my new-to-me ’04 996 GT3 on the track this weekend and if the weather permits will have some very good data with which to compare the two cars.
If you’ve already modified and set your ’05 up the way you like it then there likely wouldn’t be a tremendous difference. I’ve only played with the 996 GT3 on the street but it feels [extremely subjective] like the 997 is easier to drive quickly and perhaps a bit more stable. I’ll post a follow-up after the weekend.
Hank
I’m not sure the series is getting cushier but it is significantly more electronically dense and comes with a mandatory sunroof. From a PRACTICAL [not philosophical] perspective, the sunroof was a nonissue for me. Additionally, all of the electronics except the shocks can be turned off. The traction control is a very useful feature as is the normal/sport suspension button. I only drove mine at Road Atlanta which has recently been repaved and is very smooth. Perhaps on a bumpier track I would have a different opinion.
Having said that, the 997 GT3 is phenomenally competent on the track right out of the box and comparing stock to stock the comfort on the street got instant wife approval. Perhaps I just blew my own case with the last comment. I’ll have my new-to-me ’04 996 GT3 on the track this weekend and if the weather permits will have some very good data with which to compare the two cars.
If you’ve already modified and set your ’05 up the way you like it then there likely wouldn’t be a tremendous difference. I’ve only played with the 996 GT3 on the street but it feels [extremely subjective] like the 997 is easier to drive quickly and perhaps a bit more stable. I’ll post a follow-up after the weekend.
Hank
Speaking from the perspective of currently owning both and having tracked both, your comments are spot on.
997 is much more comfortable around town and just as if not slightly more competent for the "average" driver (read easier to drive) on track.
Having said that, I spent some time over the weekend driving the 996 around town. It really is a fun auto. Feels much lighter than the 997. (I do have GT3 seats in the 996). It could use some help on the exhaust note compared to the 997. The gearing on the 996 is also too high for the street. It's OK on track but could be lower there as well.
In my view, Porsche has done an excellent job "softening" the GT3 to broaden it's appeal. It has made the auto more desirable (pricing remains quite strong) for more people.
This is the direction I believe Porsche will continue to move down with the GT cars. If they can engineer a car that is very capable on track but also comfortable on the street, the result is more $$$ in the coffers.
Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
10-23-2007, 01:05 AM
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I think you got it spot on wbrownie!
My brother and I picked up his 997 GT3RS from Stuttgart this summer and drove around Germany and Austria for ten days. The car felt very soft and comfortable to drive. It actually felt more like at grand touring car than a track oriented car. I even had the chance to drive a 997 GT3 CS on the Leipzig track. The car felt very poised and stable around the turns but lacked the feedback I get from my 996 GT3. The 997 is definately faster and easier to drive but I still like the way the 996 communicates to me.
Cars are only going to get more comfortable and easier to drive. The 996 GT3 will most likely be the last focused drivers' car to come to North America.
In my view, Porsche has done an excellent job "softening" the GT3 to broaden it's appeal. It has made the auto more desirable (pricing remains quite strong) for more people.
This is the direction I believe Porsche will continue to move down with the GT cars. If they can engineer a car that is very capable on track but also comfortable on the street, the result is more $$$ in the coffers.
This is the direction I believe Porsche will continue to move down with the GT cars. If they can engineer a car that is very capable on track but also comfortable on the street, the result is more $$$ in the coffers.
Cars are only going to get more comfortable and easier to drive. The 996 GT3 will most likely be the last focused drivers' car to come to North America.
10-23-2007, 01:37 AM
#7
"Broaden it's appeal" is a nice way to say: abandon what GT3 once stood for and use the name and 'reputation' to sell to poseurs.
Also, I quite dislike what they are doing to the USA GT3s by taking out the standard equipment such as rollbar/carbon seats. (that's like losing 15k of equipment).
The RS is still quite nice though.
Also, I quite dislike what they are doing to the USA GT3s by taking out the standard equipment such as rollbar/carbon seats. (that's like losing 15k of equipment).
The RS is still quite nice though.
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10-23-2007, 03:17 AM
#8
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+1 Moogle! I had a 997 GT3 on order, and chose to cancel it once the sunroof was confirmed and I read the first road tests. Over the years, I have always preferred my cars "raw" and have been very pleased with this "throwback" 911 that came stateside. I am very disappointed in Porsche for abandoning the spirit of the "GT" series in lieu of market share. Didn't they sell enough Boxsters and Cayennes to maximize profits? I'm 34, and feel like one of those feisty old guys!
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10-23-2007, 03:30 AM
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10-23-2007, 03:33 AM
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The direction Porsche is following with the GT3 is the right one from marketing and profits perspective.
Fortunately, Ferrari is working on a 2,200 lbs street legal supercar that will serve as a study for future road cars. At the same time both Ferrari and Lamborghini have been shaving weight from their cars while Porsche keeps adding weight.
The GT3 series should be the equivalent to the Superleggera and Scuderia concept.
At least there is hope of the RSR name to become a future street car with no compromises.
Personally, I think Porsche should put a serious power plant in the Cayman, and call it their GT3 car. They should follow RUF approach, CTR=>CTR2=>CTR3.
Fortunately, Ferrari is working on a 2,200 lbs street legal supercar that will serve as a study for future road cars. At the same time both Ferrari and Lamborghini have been shaving weight from their cars while Porsche keeps adding weight.
The GT3 series should be the equivalent to the Superleggera and Scuderia concept.
At least there is hope of the RSR name to become a future street car with no compromises.
Personally, I think Porsche should put a serious power plant in the Cayman, and call it their GT3 car. They should follow RUF approach, CTR=>CTR2=>CTR3.
10-23-2007, 07:42 AM
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This thread echoes my feelings exactly. Over the past year I have anguished over deciding whether or not to trade my 996 RS for a 997. But every time I drive the 997, there's something about it that leaves me feeling that my 996 has a purer, more enthusiast-focused character. I am really disappointed - I was so looking forward to getting a 997 when the first photos and specs were released. But after numerous 997 GT3 and RS test drives, including having one for a whole day, I'm convinced Porsche have lost their focus with the new cars.
In many ways the 997 cars are better than the 996. You can feel the added sophistication that the extra years of engineering development provide. But it's my decidedly less sophisticated 996 RS that makes me smile more.
I'm still hoping Porsche will see the error of their ways in future GT3 versions, but sadly I think the feeding frenzy over the 997 RS will keep them driving down the wrong road. These days it seems what's best for Porsche and their shareholders is worse for their traditional GT customers. I preferred the days when Porsche embraced the values that separated them from Ferrari and Lamborghini and Aston...
I originally forgave Porsche for making that pig of a vehicle, the Cayenne. I forgave them because they also made the purely sporting GT3. Now I just see them as a Beverly Hills truck company that makes Beverly Hills sports cars on the side. And it's Ferrari now talking about lightweight sports cars. But I don't want a Ferrari, I want what used to be a Porsche.
In many ways the 997 cars are better than the 996. You can feel the added sophistication that the extra years of engineering development provide. But it's my decidedly less sophisticated 996 RS that makes me smile more.
I'm still hoping Porsche will see the error of their ways in future GT3 versions, but sadly I think the feeding frenzy over the 997 RS will keep them driving down the wrong road. These days it seems what's best for Porsche and their shareholders is worse for their traditional GT customers. I preferred the days when Porsche embraced the values that separated them from Ferrari and Lamborghini and Aston...
I originally forgave Porsche for making that pig of a vehicle, the Cayenne. I forgave them because they also made the purely sporting GT3. Now I just see them as a Beverly Hills truck company that makes Beverly Hills sports cars on the side. And it's Ferrari now talking about lightweight sports cars. But I don't want a Ferrari, I want what used to be a Porsche.
Last edited by SpeedGeek; 10-23-2007 at 07:57 AM.
10-23-2007, 09:06 AM
#12
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It looks to me like the series is getting "cushier" and I'm not the only one. I thought the RS would take it up more than it appears to have. Not trying to start anything but I just wonder what opinions on this are out there. Is it all just for marketing and sales? What am I missing? Thanks all!
Everyone else's commits are right on, so I will not repeat them here.
10-23-2007, 09:29 AM
#13
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Its ironic that they dilute the hardcore image of the GT3 by selling it to people who want that image, but not the reality.
Sadly, I think a lot of these changes are targeted at appeasing the US market.
Sadly, I think a lot of these changes are targeted at appeasing the US market.
10-23-2007, 10:13 AM
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If what we are saying on this thread is true, then the bright side is that the 996 GT3 will be collectible to some degree in the future.
However, I have to add that as an engineering company, Porsche is outstanding and despite the trend to more weight in the 997, they can change direction and focus on lighter weight again.
Of course, light weight is a relative term. Surely the 996 GT3 is a porker compared to the 1973 RS, but modern safety requirements are much higher. Even back in '73, a comfort version of the RS was offered with more equipment, and today that car is regarded as somewhat "hardcore".
My overall point is that while there is an obvious (less sporting) trend in place,
these trends have percedents in the history of Porsche and they seem to find a way to return to their roots every so often. Let's hope that as a public company with major holdings and possibly the future majority owner of VW/Audi/Lamborghini/Bentley, they can retain their identity, one of the strongest in the industry.
However, I have to add that as an engineering company, Porsche is outstanding and despite the trend to more weight in the 997, they can change direction and focus on lighter weight again.
Of course, light weight is a relative term. Surely the 996 GT3 is a porker compared to the 1973 RS, but modern safety requirements are much higher. Even back in '73, a comfort version of the RS was offered with more equipment, and today that car is regarded as somewhat "hardcore".
My overall point is that while there is an obvious (less sporting) trend in place,
these trends have percedents in the history of Porsche and they seem to find a way to return to their roots every so often. Let's hope that as a public company with major holdings and possibly the future majority owner of VW/Audi/Lamborghini/Bentley, they can retain their identity, one of the strongest in the industry.
10-23-2007, 10:45 AM
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But why has Porsche forgotten about us? Are we now such a small part of their customer base that it's not worth making a non-PASM, no-Sport-Button, no-sunroof, honest-to-goodness GT3? What's worse is they went to the trouble of making two GT3 models, neither of which is aimed at the enthusiast. I don't get it.