JZ Alcon to freeze or not to freeze, that is the question?
06-10-2007, 11:40 AM
#16
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I have cyro'd rotors in the past with no noticeable improvement in wear. I have Alcon 6 piston 380 mm in front and 4 piston 350 in rear and consider them outstanding with Pagid RS19s and now RS29s.
06-10-2007, 12:23 PM
#17
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I am in the fortunate position of having my rotors paid for by somebody else.
More than onvce I have suggested cryoing them to the Brakesman, well he doesn't own the foundry, they are supplied to his design (and beautiful interior veins they have too), but he does machine the monobloc callipers and hats from scratch.
The Brakesman tells me it isn't worth the effort - I'll destroy them regardless. The Autobahn really is tougher on brakes than the track, once all the other problems have been sorted. Given that its costing him to put the rotors and pads on the cars, I'll listen to him.
R+C
More than onvce I have suggested cryoing them to the Brakesman, well he doesn't own the foundry, they are supplied to his design (and beautiful interior veins they have too), but he does machine the monobloc callipers and hats from scratch.
The Brakesman tells me it isn't worth the effort - I'll destroy them regardless. The Autobahn really is tougher on brakes than the track, once all the other problems have been sorted. Given that its costing him to put the rotors and pads on the cars, I'll listen to him.
R+C
06-10-2007, 12:40 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
The other thing with the alcons is that the larger front disks give the car more front bias which personally I like as it stops the car weaving under braking and allows me to trail brake deep into corners. The ceramics on the 996 GT3 had too much rear bias for my tastes.
06-10-2007, 12:52 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by DanH
The other thing with the alcons is that the larger front disks give the car more front bias which personally I like as it stops the car weaving under braking and allows me to trail brake deep into corners. The ceramics on the 996 GT3 had too much rear bias for my tastes.
Having driven quite a few cars with useless rear brakes, I was pleasantly surprised when I upgraded one of these to 'proper brakes' front and rear, then when I nailed the brakes the car squatted down, rather like a cat. As it also squatted front and rear on maximum performance take-offs, the overall effect was rather pleasant.
The Brakesman adjusts the piston swept volumes front and rear to achieve optimal balance, that way he doesn't need to change the master cylinders. Add a Motorsport ABS, and you have a 'brake and forget' system that stands up to 24 Hour racing, wet and dry.
R+C
06-10-2007, 04:17 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by Nordschleife
Dan
Having driven quite a few cars with useless rear brakes, I was pleasantly surprised when I upgraded one of these to 'proper brakes' front and rear, then when I nailed the brakes the car squatted down, rather like a cat. As it also squatted front and rear on maximum performance take-offs, the overall effect was rather pleasant.
The Brakesman adjusts the piston swept volumes front and rear to achieve optimal balance, that way he doesn't need to change the master cylinders. Add a Motorsport ABS, and you have a 'brake and forget' system that stands up to 24 Hour racing, wet and dry.
R+C
Having driven quite a few cars with useless rear brakes, I was pleasantly surprised when I upgraded one of these to 'proper brakes' front and rear, then when I nailed the brakes the car squatted down, rather like a cat. As it also squatted front and rear on maximum performance take-offs, the overall effect was rather pleasant.
The Brakesman adjusts the piston swept volumes front and rear to achieve optimal balance, that way he doesn't need to change the master cylinders. Add a Motorsport ABS, and you have a 'brake and forget' system that stands up to 24 Hour racing, wet and dry.
R+C
FYI this is the reply I got from Steve the technical director at JZ:
There is no need to freeze the rotors they have already been heat treated twice to relieve any stress cracking is not an issue
Steve
Steve McHale
Technical Director
JZ Machtech Ltd
06-10-2007, 06:40 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Nordschleife
Dan
Having driven quite a few cars with useless rear brakes, I was pleasantly surprised when I upgraded one of these to 'proper brakes' front and rear, then when I nailed the brakes the car squatted down, rather like a cat. As it also squatted front and rear on maximum performance take-offs, the overall effect was rather pleasant.
The Brakesman adjusts the piston swept volumes front and rear to achieve optimal balance, that way he doesn't need to change the master cylinders. Add a Motorsport ABS, and you have a 'brake and forget' system that stands up to 24 Hour racing, wet and dry.
R+C
Having driven quite a few cars with useless rear brakes, I was pleasantly surprised when I upgraded one of these to 'proper brakes' front and rear, then when I nailed the brakes the car squatted down, rather like a cat. As it also squatted front and rear on maximum performance take-offs, the overall effect was rather pleasant.
The Brakesman adjusts the piston swept volumes front and rear to achieve optimal balance, that way he doesn't need to change the master cylinders. Add a Motorsport ABS, and you have a 'brake and forget' system that stands up to 24 Hour racing, wet and dry.
R+C
p.s. not sure if you are saying you liked the rear bias that came with ceramics on a 996? I'm of the opinion that it was a result of not adjusting the bias despite increasing the swept area/leverage at the rear, hence too much rear bias. Pretty slack of Porsche as the back end really did weave about on full braking.
06-11-2007, 02:11 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by DanH
This is on a cup car presumably? Full movit brake system?
p.s. not sure if you are saying you liked the rear bias that came with ceramics on a 996? I'm of the opinion that it was a result of not adjusting the bias despite increasing the swept area/leverage at the rear, hence too much rear bias. Pretty slack of Porsche as the back end really did weave about on full braking.
p.s. not sure if you are saying you liked the rear bias that came with ceramics on a 996? I'm of the opinion that it was a result of not adjusting the bias despite increasing the swept area/leverage at the rear, hence too much rear bias. Pretty slack of Porsche as the back end really did weave about on full braking.
No, not on a P-car at all, but a very fast 'stationwagon', aka 'the parts chaser'. Nice to pass F-cars in a wagon!
My experience with the original PCCBs is that PAG did f-all of nothing. The ABS needed recalibration, as you point out the calliper pistons and/or master cylinders should have been changed.
I discovered that it could be quite 'amusing' to let the rear end move around a bit. But, beware those wide metal expansion joints beloved by some German Autobahn engineers on elevated sections, down hill braking on curves could get a bit busy.
R+C
08-20-2007, 06:36 AM
#24
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I didn't bother, but up you. Never heard any convincing argument that freezing helps. I know a lot of people tried it with the OEM disks and it didn't make enough difference to last an extra trackday. Maybe the alcons which last 15 days + (and counting) would get you an extra day?
Sounds like your alcons are working well. I have a couple questions if you don't mind.
How is wear? How's the noise? Are these brakes perfectly streetable? (I can stand moderate pad squeal from aggressive pads)
I remember you saying that the kit was 2k pounds. What is the cost of replacement rotors alone (no hardware or front hats)?
Finally, I remember also that you converted from PCCB, does the same kit work with non-PCCB cars?
Thanks
08-20-2007, 05:03 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Sounds like your alcons are working well. I have a couple questions if you don't mind.
How is wear? How's the noise? Are these brakes perfectly streetable? (I can stand moderate pad squeal from aggressive pads)
I remember you saying that the kit was 2k pounds. What is the cost of replacement rotors alone (no hardware or front hats)?
Finally, I remember also that you converted from PCCB, does the same kit work with non-PCCB cars?
Thanks
How is wear? How's the noise? Are these brakes perfectly streetable? (I can stand moderate pad squeal from aggressive pads)
I remember you saying that the kit was 2k pounds. What is the cost of replacement rotors alone (no hardware or front hats)?
Finally, I remember also that you converted from PCCB, does the same kit work with non-PCCB cars?
Thanks
Squeal is fine, but its more down to the pads. They don't like being used softly in traffic as that strips off the transfer layer, the presence of which seems to be what stops them squealing (and ensures they work properly). The disks still don't rattle after 9k miles or so...
Can't tell you what the rotor price is - email JZ to ask. Of course with the way the fx rates have moved it might be worth investigating options from closer to home such as the wrightwood rotors. Also I hear performance friction are now doing disks for the GT3?
I'm not sure you can fit alcons on the rear on non PCCB cars as they reuse the Porsche hats from your PCCBs. Of course the rears get a lot less abuse so I'd be inclined to save money on them and stay with OEM for that axle anyway.
Dan
